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[2018-4-28. : 2:04 pm]  jjf28 -- and there's not really a methodology to how I decide where these things go/where the lines are, I'm just asserting that they exist and are defined as such[2018-4-28. : 2:03 pm] jjf28 -- SCMLoader is an obvious case of a 3rd party program being required for repeated use of the content, EUDs are a grey area, but I defined two lines where they cross into modding territory back before remastered: non-trivial executable code changes and memory changes that intentionally persist across multiple maps[2018-4-28. : 2:01 pm]  Moose -- So for the sake of debate, how do we decide where things like EUD triggers (both pre and post various patches and the "safe" remaster versions) and SCMLoader maps go[2018-4-28. : 1:58 pm] jjf28 -- Modding: creating content which requires 3rd party programs, changes to StarCraft/Broodwar game files (excluding maps), or the use of exploits to make non-trivial code changes/persistent memory changes, to be repeatedly played.[2018-4-28. : 1:33 pm] jjf28 -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: jjf28 > make map with chkdraft > load map in SC > SC behave differently > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ u right, I'll have to get more specific[2018-4-28. : 1:29 pm] Moose -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Modding: modifying the behavior of StarCraft/Broodwar with 3rd party programs – or by using exploits to make non-trivial changes to executable code – and developing content to be played with those modifications. > make map with chkdraft > load map in SC > SC behave differently > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯[2018-4-28. : 1:26 pm] jjf28 -- also I'm not completely satisfied with jjf28jjf28 shouted: Modding: modifying the behavior of StarCraft/Broodwar with 3rd party programs – or by using exploits to make non-trivial changes to executable code – and developing content to be played with those modifications. , I think there's a second line (besides the executable code changes) where using exploits to intentionally persist memory changes into other maps played would also count as modding[2018-4-28. : 1:21 pm] jjf28 -- Dem0nDem0n shouted: who didn't know that Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: it's 100% mapping, only you start your client differently imo[2018-4-28. : 1:13 pm] jjf28 -- Modding: modifying the behavior of StarCraft/Broodwar with 3rd party programs – or by using exploits to make non-trivial changes to executable code – and developing content to be played with those modifications.[2018-4-28. : 1:13 pm] jjf28 -- Mapping: developing map files that can be played on vanilla StarCraft/BroodWar.[2018-4-28. : 12:50 pm]  Corbo -- Even if you make it in staredit it will turn up to not be vanilla sc so all mapping is not mapping tbh[2018-4-28. : 5:27 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- a lot of launchers either had support for EUDEnabler or just had it built in[2018-4-28. : 5:25 am] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Voyager7456 which isn't mapping. uhhhhhhhhhhh[2018-4-28. : 2:35 am] thekian -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: thekian Lanthanide roiling jjf28jjf28 shouted: hmm.. wrong sense of the word but I liked that it sounded like boiling broiling [2018-4-28. : 2:32 am] ClansAreForGays -- Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: when me and sc jesus are doing a better job of remastering their game there's a problem :eyeroll:[2018-4-28. : 1:56 am] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: NudeRaider Except EUD actions were always available with EUDEnabler. And more powerful than the ones SC:R supports. which isn't mapping.[2018-4-28. : 1:42 am] jjf28 -- hmm.. wrong sense of the word but I liked that it sounded like boiling [2018-4-28. : 1:41 am] jjf28 -- thekianthekian shouted: mad LanthanideLanthanide shouted: heated roiling[2018-4-27. : 8:06 pm] Moose -- ☐ Not REKT NeivNeiv shouted: pls don't use my name to make up for your poorly expressed arguments :l ☑ REKT NeivNeiv shouted: I don't like to see myself associated with your arguments where the few good points are padded up with a bunch of garbage ☑ North by NorthREKT[2018-4-27. : 4:43 pm] Broflamingo -- NeivNeiv shouted: true, the approximation algorithm can be customized if you know graphics programming lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: Neiv fuccing rekt NeivNeiv shouted: pls don't use my name to make up for your poorly expressed arguments :l BRONAGE[2018-4-27. : 4:05 pm] lil-Inferno -- NeivNeiv shouted: pls don't use my name to make up for your poorly expressed arguments :l fuccing rekt[2018-4-27. : 4:03 pm] Neiv -- I don't like to see myself associated with your arguments where the few good points are padded up with a bunch of garbage[2018-4-27. : 3:59 pm] Neiv -- true, the approximation algorithm can be customized if you know graphics programming[2018-4-27. : 3:59 pm] Pr0nogo -- i also don't really see how mentioning your work is propping up my arguments either, SC:R offers nothing of value to me but it encouraged you to create tools i can now use to create better projects[2018-4-27. : 3:57 pm] Pr0nogo -- as i discovered in my extensive testing the extended pcolors also don't work on remastered nearly as well, but that's the engine's fault (only uses the first value of the pcolorset and approximates from there, instead of 1.16.1 rendering with all 8 colors)[2018-4-27. : 3:56 pm] Neiv -- the main reason i haven't bothered is because the better portable way would make the debug plugin display nonsensical values[2018-4-27. : 3:53 pm] Neiv -- also the plugins are literally made to be equal on any version they run on[2018-4-27. : 3:52 pm] Neiv -- pls don't use my name to make up for your poorly expressed arguments :l[2018-4-27. : 3:07 pm] Pr0nogo -- when me and sc jesus are doing a better job of remastering their game there's a problem[2018-4-27. : 3:07 pm] Pr0nogo -- the only good thing to come out of SC:R for my money was that it encouraged neiv to work more on plugins (that work better on 1.16.1 :DDDD) and as a result we have more engine functionality[2018-4-27. : 2:46 pm] Voyager7456 -- I think if you asked the folks on Fish whether mappers lost with SC:R, they would have a different opinion.[2018-4-27. : 2:45 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Voyager7456 I don't know, seeing Lanths DS Night I'd argue basically bringing EUD actions back is a big deal. But I agree, overall the modding community probably lost with SC:R. (Mappers didn't) Except EUD actions were always available with EUDEnabler. And more powerful than the ones SC:R supports.[2018-4-27. : 2:30 pm] Pr0nogo -- if you think that it's not possible to have a negative overall opinion of sc:r and simultaneously be a reasonable individual you should probably join jayborino's discord server[2018-4-27. : 2:29 pm] Pr0nogo -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Pr0 thanks for giving a wonderful example to prove my point from the last sentence here: NudeRaider For me, the "skin pack" alone is reason enough to invest again in my all-time favorite game. Convenience is another reason. It now "just works" on modern Windows. No more killing Explorer, or fiddling with w-mode. In addition it's a good way to show my appreciation for what I believe is the best game ever made. i don't "bash" blizzard because it's cool, I am stating why I am dissatisfied with their product[2018-4-27. : 2:29 pm] Pr0nogo -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: more mad LMAO BroflamingoBroflamingo shouted: Pr0nogo Pr0nogo Pr0nogo Pr0nogo Mad* [2018-4-27. : 1:05 pm] Broflamingo -- Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: :DDDDDDDDDDDDD Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: that's literally it Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: a skin pack Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: think about what you get with 1.20 that you don't have with 1.16.1 w/ mods: Mad*[2018-4-27. : 1:05 pm] Broflamingo -- Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: think about what you get with 1.20 that you don't have with 1.16.1 w/ mods: Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: a skin pack Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: that's literally it Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: :DDDDDDDDDDDDD Mas[2018-4-27. : 12:59 pm] DarkenedFantasies -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: ok, so just 1 trigger that doesn't work in multiplayer anyway That does seem to be how blizz feels about most bugs. In single player (and only in single player, for some reason), Center View is not properly centered. I'm pretty sure this bug exists since 1.18, and I've reported it twice. If they can somehow screw up Center View like this and still not be bothered to fix it after all this time, I don't really have any expectations for them to fix the issues with EUD. The EUD issues I've listed heavily inconvenience single player projects, most notably campaigns. Until they can fix those bugs, modding remains the only reasonable option for campaigns, if you don't want to sacrifice game features for changing aspects of the game.[2018-4-27. : 11:36 am] NudeRaider -- yeah but he was the one to put out broad "matter-of-fact" statements[2018-4-27. : 10:37 am] Moose -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Why can't you acknowledge that there's different people with different points of views. And while Blizzard may not have catered to your specific needs (yet) they certainly have pleased a lot of fans with long missed features. Also it's my impression that they expand on their EUD support as time goes on. But Pr0nogo is also a different person with a different point of view? LMAOOOO[2018-4-27. : 8:25 am] NudeRaider -- lol I'm so conditioned. Reading this http://www.staredit.net/369898/ (even just the title) I thought "MA sux"  [2018-4-27. : 8:15 am] NudeRaider -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Pr0nogo a userbase huehuehuehue This is a big deal, imo. Easier access, regained publicity, making it attractive for more people.[2018-4-27. : 8:13 am] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Lanthanide Lanthanide these are the only two that actually matter for content creators, and they're outweighed by the negatives I don't know, seeing Lanths DS Night I'd argue basically bringing EUD actions back is a big deal. But I agree, overall the modding community probably lost with SC:R. (Mappers didn't) |
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