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[2018-4-28. : 3:00 pm]  Corbo -- Wait. So you got into an argument and you don't know what it is about?[2018-4-28. : 2:58 pm]  NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Agreed... but again, someone making a EUDEnabler map is doing neither. not sure what that is. Is that a map, where through use of EUDs a regular starcraft instance is made to allow EUD actions during runtime of the map?[2018-4-28. : 2:58 pm] Corbo -- The fact that you did not make them yourself does not mean you are not modding[2018-4-28. : 2:57 pm] Voyager7456 -- Agreed... but again, someone making a EUDEnabler map is doing neither.[2018-4-28. : 2:56 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Voyager7456 bad example then. Point stands. What? How so? You cannot agree with my definition of modding and then say someone can mod without altering data files.[2018-4-28. : 2:56 pm] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: NudeRaider No, but I created the MPQ that loaded them. bad example then. Point stands.[2018-4-28. : 2:55 pm] Voyager7456 -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: I was originally offering definitions concerning the content, I started spilling over into the latter facet without realizing it The latter is the only part where the distinction matters imo. Because like Moose said, I can get the exact same effect with a modding plugin or a EUD map. What matters is how I got there.[2018-4-28. : 2:54 pm] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Also I would argue many maps created by vanilla StarEdit or SCMDraft2 "can not be played as intended" yup, I don't like the term vanilla as it may refer to sc (no bw) version 1.0. Vanilla in this context should be used as "out of the box" or "used with an official patch version" [2018-4-28. : 2:54 pm] jjf28 -- I was originally offering definitions concerning the content, I started spilling over into the latter facet without realizing it[2018-4-28. : 2:53 pm] Corbo -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: ah so we're adding another facet, there's both whether the content itself is mapping or modding, and whether the creators themselves engaged in mapping or modding in creating something ...was this not the whole point lmao[2018-4-28. : 2:52 pm] Voyager7456 -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: Voyager7456 Ya, but we can argue anything because SEN u rite u rite [2018-4-28. : 2:52 pm] jjf28 -- ah so we're adding another facet, there's both whether the content itself is mapping or modding, and whether the creators themselves engaged in mapping or modding in creating something [2018-4-28. : 2:52 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: " mapper didn't create EUDEnabler. " not necessary to fulfil definition of modding. For example, you don't need to make the grps yourself to make a mod with them. No, but I created the MPQ that loaded them.[2018-4-28. : 2:52 pm] Corbo -- Besides many mods include maps. Those maps cannot be played "as intended" without the mod. Does not take away the fact that those maps were created via... mapping [2018-4-28. : 2:52 pm] NudeRaider -- " mapper didn't create EUDEnabler. " not necessary to fulfil definition of modding. For example, you don't need to make the grps yourself to make a mod with them.[2018-4-28. : 2:52 pm] Voyager7456 -- Also I would argue many maps created by vanilla StarEdit or SCMDraft2 "can not be played as intended" [2018-4-28. : 2:51 pm]  Moose -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: You can argue running EUDEnabler is playing a mod, but creating a map for it is not modding. Ya, but we can argue anything because SEN [2018-4-28. : 2:51 pm] Voyager7456 -- You can argue running EUDEnabler is playing a mod, but creating a map for it is not modding.[2018-4-28. : 2:51 pm] Voyager7456 -- Yeah, but the mapper didn't create EUDEnabler. The process of creating the map involved zero modding.[2018-4-28. : 2:50 pm] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: NudeRaider Well making a EUD map that can be played with EUDEnabler isn't modding then. Because the mapper isn't modifying any code or data files, and the map CAN technically be played on vanilla SC. can not be played as intended. And that EUDenabler is adding to scs code files aka code executes differently, although not permanently[2018-4-28. : 2:49 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: jjf28 Voyager7456 pretty much these Well making a EUD map that can be played with EUDEnabler isn't modding then. Because the mapper isn't modifying any code or data files, and the map CAN technically be played on vanilla SC.[2018-4-28. : 2:47 pm] NudeRaider -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Mapping: developing map files that can be played on vanilla StarCraft/BroodWar. Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Modding IMO is the modification of code or data files, aside from scenario files pretty much these[2018-4-28. : 2:43 pm] Voyager7456 -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Modding IMO is the modification of code or data files, aside from scenario files This imo, is a far cleaner definition and is consistent with how the term has been used in every other gaming community I've been in. (At least the ones whose games actually support custom user scenarios)[2018-4-28. : 2:37 pm] jjf28 -- (I wouldn't call it a red line, since I haven't found a clear way of expressing where it is)[2018-4-28. : 2:36 pm] jjf28 -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: jjf28 Voyager7456 I agreed there's a hole in the definition, and just making persistent memory changes isn't enough, but I still think there's a line[2018-4-28. : 2:35 pm] Voyager7456 -- I don't see why there's a red line for some persistent memory changes created by vanilla SC vs. others[2018-4-28. : 2:35 pm] Voyager7456 -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: and if you have counter arguments (e.g. examples that makes the characterization as modding absurd) you can make me give up the assertion but it just seems intuitively obvious to me Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Playing a standard map size alters the memory state in a persistent way (allowing you to play super-small maps without crashing) but that's not modding either [2018-4-28. : 2:34 pm] jjf28 -- and if you have counter arguments (e.g. examples that makes the characterization as modding absurd) you can make me give up the assertion but it just seems intuitively obvious to me[2018-4-28. : 2:33 pm] jjf28 -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Well, I disagree with that assertion and that's fair  [2018-4-28. : 2:33 pm] Corbo -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: mapping vs modding is the new tabs vs spaces, we needed this we did need this tho[2018-4-28. : 2:31 pm] jjf28 -- I still think there's a line with memory changes, you create a map with the intent and effect of enabling remastered graphics and changing things like the download rate and latency, you've engaged in modding, you're not just exploiting a bug[2018-4-28. : 2:30 pm] Corbo -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Modding IMO is the modification of code or data files, aside from scenario files this[2018-4-28. : 2:28 pm] jjf28 -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Playing a standard map size alters the memory state in a persistent way (allowing you to play super-small maps without crashing) but that's not modding either ok yea the definition definitely has a hole in this case[2018-4-28. : 2:26 pm] Voyager7456 -- Playing a standard map size alters the memory state in a persistent way (allowing you to play super-small maps without crashing) but that's not modding either[2018-4-28. : 2:26 pm] Corbo -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Corbo I already updated the definition jjf28 yeah well, i had not refreshed so fuck you[2018-4-28. : 2:26 pm] Voyager7456 -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: I'd consider that modding jjf28jjf28 shouted: for instance, if you managed to make memory changes in a "patch map" which changed all of the terrain colors and walkability states, and that persisted over to other maps... I would not. You're just exploiting a bug, not doing any modding yourself.[2018-4-28. : 2:25 pm] jjf28 -- CorboCorbo shouted: jjf28 by that definition eud maps are still mapping, if you wanted to express something else, the mod is the eud loader itself. The fact that you execute a mod to play a map does not make mapping modding. It makes mapping remain mapping. Maaaany mods have included maps to be played with and that does not mean those maps are mods, those maps also do not function properly without said mod. But they are still maps. I already updated the definition jjf28jjf28 shouted: Modding: creating content which requires 3rd party programs, changes to StarCraft/Broodwar game files (excluding maps), or the use of exploits to make non-trivial code changes/persistent memory changes, to be repeatedly played. [2018-4-28. : 2:24 pm] Corbo -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Modding: modifying the behavior of StarCraft/Broodwar with 3rd party programs – or by using exploits to make non-trivial changes to executable code – and developing content to be played with those modifications. by that definition eud maps are still mapping, if you wanted to express something else, the mod is the eud loader itself. The fact that you execute a mod to play a map does not make mapping modding. It makes mapping remain mapping. Maaaany mods have included maps to be played with and that does not mean those maps are mods, those maps also do not function properly without said mod. But they are still maps.[2018-4-28. : 2:23 pm] Voyager7456 -- Modding IMO is the modification of code or data files, aside from scenario files[2018-4-28. : 2:23 pm] jjf28 -- for instance, if you managed to make memory changes in a "patch map" which changed all of the terrain colors and walkability states, and that persisted over to other maps...[2018-4-28. : 2:21 pm] Moose -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Voyager7456 jjf28 I think there's using an exploit, then using an exploit to radically change how the game works You mean like hyper triggers? :trollface:[2018-4-28. : 2:21 pm] jjf28 -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: jjf28 also disagree with using EUDs to create persistent changes counting as modding jjf28jjf28 shouted: Mini Moose 2707 I'd say 1.) What's needed to play it 2.) The extent to which exploits are used I think there's using an exploit, then using an exploit to radically change how the game works[2018-4-28. : 2:20 pm] jjf28 -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: So, a thought experiment: Someone sits you down at a computer to play SC, game is already in-progress. Weird shit is going on and it's not obvious where it's an exe-hack to load a different MPQ or EUD shenanigans. If you can't tell without leaving SC or quitting the current game, what is the difference? the difference is technical and not something you can accurately determine just by playing, you can make guesss at what it's doing[2018-4-28. : 2:19 pm] Voyager7456 -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: also I'm not completely satisfied with jjf28 , I think there's a second line (besides the executable code changes) where using exploits to intentionally persist memory changes into other maps played would also count as modding also disagree with using EUDs to create persistent changes counting as modding[2018-4-28. : 2:16 pm] Moose -- So, a thought experiment: Someone sits you down at a computer to play SC, game is already in-progress. Weird shit is going on and it's not obvious where it's an exe-hack to load a different MPQ or EUD shenanigans. If you can't tell without leaving SC or quitting the current game, what is the difference?[2018-4-28. : 2:15 pm] Voyager7456 -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Mapping: developing map files that can be played on vanilla StarCraft/BroodWar. Disagree with the "vanilla" part.[2018-4-28. : 2:11 pm] jjf28 -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: So are the real distinguishing criteria 1. what users need to do to play and 2. is it "officially supported" (though probably lacking official documentation) I'd say 1.) What's needed to play it 2.) The extent to which exploits are used[2018-4-28. : 2:09 pm] Moose -- So are the real distinguishing criteria 1. what users need to do to play and 2. is it "officially supported" (though probably lacking official documentation)[2018-4-28. : 2:07 pm] jjf28 -- now that EUDs are no longer exploits in remastered, they're never modding imo |
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