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[2018-4-28. : 9:18 pm]  Lanthanide -- right, so you've just argued that they are in fact part of the mod[2018-4-28. : 9:17 pm] Pr0nogo -- calling the entire end user experience a mod is pretty reductionist imo, it involves a mod and a map (or a series of maps)[2018-4-28. : 9:08 pm] Pr0nogo -- when i'm placing units and structures in a map that will be used by a custom AI i've made, i'm not modding[2018-4-28. : 9:07 pm] Pr0nogo -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: clearly maps that rely on mods are intended by the author to function in a particular way, if they can't / don't function in that particular way for a player, then either the products themselves are broken or the player is doing something wrong yes but in the process of making the MAP component of their project they were not modding[2018-4-28. : 8:50 pm] Lanthanide -- (in this case, the wrong thing the player is doing, is trying to play the modded map without loading the mod first; whether that be an exe launcher or EUD enabler or whatever)[2018-4-28. : 8:49 pm] Lanthanide -- clearly maps that rely on mods are intended by the author to function in a particular way, if they can't / don't function in that particular way for a player, then either the products themselves are broken or the player is doing something wrong[2018-4-28. : 8:48 pm] Lanthanide -- if you truly did not care what the player experienced, you'd just put random noise into a file, call it a map and then say "I don't care that SC can't load it - I never gave you any warranty as to what enjoyment you would receive from my product"[2018-4-28. : 8:47 pm] Lanthanide -- also the idea that someone can take a map that was intended to be run with a mod, and run it under regular SC and have the map barely function, and therefore that absolves the map from being a mod product, is frankly bizarre[2018-4-28. : 8:46 pm] Lanthanide -- the argument as to whether a particular map that requires a mod to actually function as intended is a mod in itself I think is rather immaterial[2018-4-28. : 8:46 pm] Lanthanide -- ergo, any sort of launcher that modifies the execution of the program is a mod[2018-4-28. : 8:45 pm] Lanthanide -- you could say "this isn't a mod, it's a launcher that live-patches the data in exactly the same way that would have been arrived at had I modified the files on disk first"[2018-4-28. : 8:45 pm] Lanthanide -- therefore, a launcher, while not modifying "files" on disk, is modifying resident memory[2018-4-28. : 8:45 pm] Lanthanide -- the files on disk don't mean squat until they're loaded into memory[2018-4-28. : 8:45 pm] Lanthanide -- files contain data that are read into memory and then executable code reads that data and processes it in certain ways[2018-4-28. : 8:44 pm] Lanthanide -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: The only thing that matters is what files were modified. If the answer is "just .scx/.scm" it's not a mod not sure why you're getting hung up on this idea of "files" being modified[2018-4-28. : 4:35 pm]  O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Yeah, but the mapper didn't create EUDEnabler. The process of creating the map involved zero modding. but what if I made an EUD map? XD[2018-4-28. : 3:22 pm] Moose -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: anyway seems we have reached as much of a conclusion we can. I'm off -bye rage[2018-4-28. : 3:22 pm]  NudeRaider -- anyway seems we have reached as much of a conclusion we can. I'm off -bye[2018-4-28. : 3:21 pm] Voyager7456 -- The only thing that matters is what files were modified. If the answer is "just .scx/.scm" it's not a mod[2018-4-28. : 3:20 pm] Voyager7456 -- testing doesn't matter at all, because again I don't care if the player finds it satisfying to play the map or not[2018-4-28. : 3:20 pm] jjf28 -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: NudeRaider you're wrong about the first one, and also the second (unless knowledge of memory offsets needed for EUDs in general counts) you need a modding tool to test your product and you know your clients will need modding tools to experience at least some components of your product*[2018-4-28. : 3:20 pm] NudeRaider -- I want to see anyone creating a proper (somewhat bug-free, reasonably complex/fun) map without ever testing it using the plugin.[2018-4-28. : 3:18 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: you, the creator, need a modding tool, need modding knowledge to create your product and know your clients will need a modding tool. I think in this context it's pretty troll-y to pretend you're still a mere mapper you're wrong about the first one, and also the second (unless knowledge of memory offsets needed for EUDs in general counts)[2018-4-28. : 3:17 pm] NudeRaider -- you, the creator, need a modding tool, need modding knowledge to create your product and know your clients will need a modding tool. I think in this context it's pretty troll-y to pretend you're still a mere mapper[2018-4-28. : 3:10 pm] Voyager7456 -- My definition also doesn't care if the player finds it satisfying to play the map without running the mod. Like Corbo said, Ad Astras maps could be loaded in regular SC, they just wouldn't be much fun.[2018-4-28. : 3:09 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: I like to look at it not from the perspective of the maker, but from the perspective of the player, aka can I play it without additional tools? If yes, it's a map, if not the product is a mod. By my definition, a scenario file itself is not a mod.[2018-4-28. : 3:07 pm] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: jjf28 tbh fam I'd argue all maps can't be fully enjoyed without modded SC   [2018-4-28. : 3:07 pm] Corbo -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: jjf28 tbh fam I'd argue all maps can't be fully enjoyed without modded SC particulary crazy critters[2018-4-28. : 3:06 pm] NudeRaider -- I like to look at it not from the perspective of the maker, but from the perspective of the player, aka can I play it without additional tools? If yes, it's a map, if not the product is a mod.[2018-4-28. : 3:05 pm] Voyager7456 -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: your map cannot be fully enjoyed without a modded StarCraft, so it has a modding component tbh fam I'd argue all maps can't be fully enjoyed without modded SC [2018-4-28. : 3:05 pm] jjf28 -- your map cannot be fully enjoyed without a modded StarCraft, so it has a modding component[2018-4-28. : 3:05 pm] Corbo -- For example. As astras uses special maps to be played. Those maps can be played without the mod. Of o were to make additional maps for ad astras i would be mapping not modding.[2018-4-28. : 3:04 pm] NudeRaider -- okay seems we need to distinguish between making the product and playing the product.[2018-4-28. : 3:03 pm] Voyager7456 -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: You can argue running EUDEnabler is playing a mod, but creating a map for it is not modding. CorboCorbo shouted: Map itself can also still be technically played with raw sc. Not as intended but still. [2018-4-28. : 3:03 pm] NudeRaider -- doesnt matter if the creator didnt use anything else besides a map editor. the product he creates depends on a modding tool[2018-4-28. : 3:02 pm] Corbo -- Map itself can also still be technically played with raw sc. Not as intended but still.[2018-4-28. : 3:02 pm] NudeRaider -- the question is: is the EUDenabler part of the map, aka can be played with an out of the box installation, or is it a plugin you have to download before being able to play it? This is where I draw the distinction[2018-4-28. : 3:00 pm] Voyager7456 -- Modified client, map itself could be made with normal SCMDraft2.[2018-4-28. : 3:00 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Voyager7456 not sure what that is. Is that a map, where through use of EUDs a regular starcraft instance is made to allow EUD actions during runtime of the map? It's a standard EUD map. EUDEnabler was basically a launcher for SC that activated EUDs again. |
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