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[2018-4-30. : 1:53 am]  O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- I guess if you consider "Unit Deaths" the condition/action itself[2018-4-30. : 1:16 am]  jjf28 -- I'd call EPDs a subset of EUDs cause it's just using one of the fields rather than both[2018-4-30. : 1:11 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: probably nothing. They likely do use EPDs. EUD is both a specific term for the type of overflow you're using (aka not EPD) and a generalized term for all extended-something overflow methods. So when they make EUD maps they probably use extended players as well. 'EUD' and 'EPD' are different, but they both involve deaths overflows and 'EUD' had already caught on as the term for it XD[2018-4-30. : 1:10 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: because I saw Korean EUD maps that changed graphics and shit, not sure what more they're missing LMAO I don't think that would be possible with the old EUDs from before when they were patched out. afaik doing those maps is only possible with EUDEnabler[2018-4-30. : 1:08 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- EUDEnabler gets rid of that player ID must be < 8, which inadvertently made extended player actions available with the plugin, and therefore writing to any memory[2018-4-30. : 1:08 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- EUDs were used at first because player ID was capped at player 8. Players 9-12 exist, but can't be written to with set deaths and are therefore holes in the addressable range of EUDs[2018-4-30. : 1:07 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- EUDs use an extended unit ID, which is a u16 and so it has a much more limited range[2018-4-30. : 1:06 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: FaRTy1billion ya I got that but IDFK what EPD actions are or what they let you do Oh. It uses extended players because it's an int, so you can use them to access any memory address[2018-4-29. : 10:04 pm] Suicidal Insanity -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: maybe, think that'd have to be pre-2009 when SI did the memory condition You're making me feel old :X[2018-4-29. : 9:12 pm] NudeRaider -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: So basically you don't know LMAO correct. I'm not part of the Korean EUD scene, so all I can do is apply knowledge and logic to reach a conclusion.[2018-4-29. : 6:41 pm] jjf28 -- maybe, think that'd have to be pre-2009 when SI did the memory condition[2018-4-29. : 6:25 pm] trgk -- I was the first to completely abandon eud and only use the epd, as i know of[2018-4-29. : 3:59 pm] NudeRaider -- probably nothing. They likely do use EPDs. EUD is both a specific term for the type of overflow you're using (aka not EPD) and a generalized term for all extended-something overflow methods. So when they make EUD maps they probably use extended players as well.[2018-4-29. : 2:05 pm] lil-Inferno -- because I saw Korean EUD maps that changed graphics and shit, not sure what more they're missing LMAO[2018-4-29. : 1:53 pm] Moose -- But that doesn't really explain more, we already knew we could access more memory locations from what  said.[2018-4-29. : 1:19 pm] NudeRaider -- extended player deaths. Instead of going into high unit ID numbers you enter high player ID numbers. Lets you access a larger portion of memory afaik.[2018-4-29. : 10:15 am] lil-Inferno -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: lil-Inferno EPD actions: FaRTy1billion ya I got that but IDFK what EPD actions are or what they let you do[2018-4-29. : 9:46 am] NudeRaider -- thekianthekian shouted: Lanthanide mad Lanthanide still mad Lanthanide also mad Lanthanide mad again Lanthanide mad still Lanthanide again mad Lanthanide just as mad as before [squote=1 actually you know what this would take about half an hour to finish and fill up most of the shoutbox page. not sure you fully get the meme...[2018-4-29. : 3:20 am] thekian -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: ergo, any sort of launcher that modifies the execution of the program is a mod mad LanthanideLanthanide shouted: that's clearly a silly position to take still mad LanthanideLanthanide shouted: you could say "this isn't a mod, it's a launcher that live-patches the data in exactly the same way that would have been arrived at had I modified the files on disk first" also mad LanthanideLanthanide shouted: therefore, a launcher, while not modifying "files" on disk, is modifying resident memory mad again LanthanideLanthanide shouted: the files on disk don't mean squat until they're loaded into memory mad still LanthanideLanthanide shouted: files contain data that are read into memory and then executable code reads that data and processes it in certain ways again mad LanthanideLanthanide shouted: Voyager7456 not sure why you're getting hung up on this idea of "files" being modified just as mad as before [squote=1 actually you know what this would take about half an hour to finish and fill up most of the shoutbox page.[2018-4-29. : 3:13 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: FaRTy1billion like wut EPD actions: FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: those didn't allow set deaths of players above 8, so couldn't do EPD actions and like 1/3 of addresses were unusable [2018-4-29. : 1:00 am]  Corbo -- oh wow, I came late to an arguement I have nothing to add nor contribute but I'll spread waste anyway because reasons![2018-4-28. : 11:45 pm] lil-Inferno -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: EUDEnabler has more functionality than those EUDs though XD like wut[2018-4-28. : 11:10 pm] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- those didn't allow set deaths of players above 8, so couldn't do EPD actions and like 1/3 of addresses were unusable[2018-4-28. : 11:10 pm] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- EUDEnabler has more functionality than those EUDs though XD[2018-4-28. : 10:21 pm] Moose -- Mostly just laziness on my part, and compatibility worries in the past. During the patch wars of Heinermann vs Blizzard, your EUD maps would work for like ten minutes then you had to redo all the addresses LMAO[2018-4-28. : 10:21 pm] Voyager7456 -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: Pretty sure the launcher to get on Fish had EUD Enabler, so everyone just had it. You didn't need to tell people to run SC with it. yeah[2018-4-28. : 10:20 pm] lil-Inferno -- Pretty sure the launcher to get on Fish had EUD Enabler, so everyone just had it. You didn't need to tell people to run SC with it.[2018-4-28. : 10:20 pm] Lanthanide -- and then once people have played it, they will demand it from other PC Bangs[2018-4-28. : 10:20 pm] Lanthanide -- then that takes care of all of the 'convincing people to run a mod' - you just have to convince the PC Bang owner to install it[2018-4-28. : 10:19 pm] Lanthanide -- also I'm not sure how active 'PC Bangs' are or whatever anymore, but if that's how you played SC, and they had installed a modded version of SC that only connected to fish or whatever[2018-4-28. : 10:19 pm] Lanthanide -- is EUDs existed back in 2003-2004 it probably would've happened in the west too[2018-4-28. : 10:17 pm] Voyager7456 -- Tbh I've always wondered why the Korean mapping community embraced EUDEnabler and had a thriving EUD map scene for years, while the West kinda shrugged and have up[2018-4-28. : 10:02 pm] Lanthanide -- I think EUD maps that have behaviours that persist outside of the normal realm of the game is a grey area, though[2018-4-28. : 10:01 pm] Lanthanide -- what matters is the execution of the game, and that can be done without modding "files"[2018-4-28. : 10:00 pm] Lanthanide -- again, your pre-occupation of "files" being modified is spurious[2018-4-28. : 10:00 pm] Lanthanide -- EUD enabler is of course a different sort of mod than is usually common in SC terms, but other games such as Skyrim have meta-mods that add general functionality to the game, that other mods then build on top of[2018-4-28. : 10:00 pm] Voyager7456 -- A mod is a modification of game data files outside of scenarios, full stop. Everything else is irrelevant.[2018-4-28. : 9:58 pm] Lanthanide -- precision in thought is as important as precision in communication[2018-4-28. : 9:58 pm] Voyager7456 -- No it isn't. Words have definitions that actually have meaning.[2018-4-28. : 9:58 pm] Lanthanide -- support in maps is better than support in mods, therefore it is an improvement in SCR over 1.16.1[2018-4-28. : 9:57 pm] Lanthanide -- I think that's a silly argument to try and break necessary components for a complete experience into discrete parts and call some parts mods and other parts not[2018-4-28. : 9:57 pm] Lanthanide -- and Voy fried to argue that they aren't mods, they're maps, it's EUD enabler that is the mod[2018-4-28. : 9:56 pm] Lanthanide -- but the argument is that because 1.16.1 didn't natively support EUDs, such EUD maps can be considered mods[2018-4-28. : 9:56 pm] Lanthanide -- Voy tried to argue that SCR supporting EUDs natively doesn't matter, because you could do that in 1.16.1 anyway[2018-4-28. : 9:54 pm] Pr0nogo -- even by your logic your map isn't a mod so what are you even arguing about[2018-4-28. : 9:53 pm] Voyager7456 -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: the argument as to whether a particular map that requires a mod to actually function as intended is a mod in itself I think is rather immaterial No, that's the whole argument[2018-4-28. : 9:42 pm] Lanthanide -- the actual act of creation may be referred to as "mapping" in that you're using a particular tool and particular techniques, but the end product is still a modded map (a mod)[2018-4-28. : 9:42 pm] Lanthanide -- so in summary: maps that rely on mods to operate properly should be considered, as a whole, mods[2018-4-28. : 9:38 pm] Moose -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: if you truly did not care what the player experienced, you'd just put random noise into a file, call it a map and then say "I don't care that SC can't load it - I never gave you any warranty as to what enjoyment you would receive from my product" Revolutionary new mapping technique! dd if=/dev/urandom of=map.scx bs=100K count=1[2018-4-28. : 9:18 pm] Lanthanide -- it's like saying "you need 10 data files for this mod to function properly. 9 of these are automatically loaded by the game, the 10th one you have to manually load yourself. I'm not going to give you the 10th map in the same download as the rest of the mod, but will distribute it separately" |
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