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[2019-1-30. : 5:35 pm]  Oh_Man -- U get around 3 hours playtime and i only use a fourth of the 256x256[2019-1-30. : 5:35 pm] Oh_Man -- Well I can't address all that but I think u shuld try my map and maybe you'll be surprised by how many things u can do in SC despite it's limits[2019-1-30. : 5:32 pm]  Voyager7456 -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Oh_Man Oh_Man The spell cast interface is just a small part of it, I think there are a lot of other issues like awkward menu/inventory/dialogue systems, trying to stretch a 256x256 map into a game world, lack of visual distinction, limitations on gameplay effects. Different maps suffer from these problems to different extents of course. Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: With sc u need that 1 additional keypress unless EUDs [2019-1-30. : 5:31 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: If u think sc2 and war3 are.more rpg friendly then I'd qgree I think they are, because their engines were designed at least in part to support those kinds of ideas. I can't really comment too much because I don't have a lot of experience with custom content for those games[2019-1-30. : 5:30 pm] Voyager7456 -- Sorry, my comments this entire time have been about SC1 custom content, maybe I didn't make that clear.[2019-1-30. : 5:29 pm] Oh_Man -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Oh_Man Nah, it's being realistic about design. Stray too far from RTS design and the clunkiness of trying to force the engine to be something it's not is going to impede gameplay. MOBAs are "RTS-adjacent" enough that I think they work. well u were talking more broadly b4[2019-1-30. : 5:28 pm] Voyager7456 -- Other engines might have features that make implementing out-of-genre mechanics easier and feel less gimmicky, sure. I'm solely commenting on SC1 though[2019-1-30. : 5:25 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: No comment on Diablo or Founding of Durotar? My comment would be that Diablo may have been inspired by mechanics in the Warcraft (as modern MOBA games were from AOS/WC3 DOTA) but that doesn't really have a bearing on whether implementing an ARPG or MOBA in SC is clunky.[2019-1-30. : 5:24 pm] Pr0nogo -- yeah you make a habit of responding only to certain people, strange that[2019-1-30. : 5:23 pm] Pr0nogo -- more than half the missions are micro, the build and destroy maps have nothing but gimmicks and abstractions[2019-1-30. : 5:23 pm] Pr0nogo -- war3 melee is the only rts gameplay you'll see in that game, nothing in the campaign represents an rts[2019-1-30. : 5:23 pm] Pr0nogo -- Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: Oh_Man warcraft 3 has no rts missions in its campaign [2019-1-30. : 5:23 pm] Pr0nogo -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Oh_Man Yeah, MOBAs are but RPGs are not. SC has an official Zerg Soccer map but it doesn't mean SC sports maps aren't gimicks either [2019-1-30. : 5:22 pm] Pr0nogo -- yeah i think the convo has been couched in the assumption that half the debate doesn't enjoy maps, which most if not all of us have already dispelled[2019-1-30. : 5:21 pm] Voyager7456 -- CorboCorbo shouted: Yo, assholes saying modding is a worthless piece of shit, NudeRaider Oh_Man is it just modding itself that we should not do or can we not play mods anymore as well? as always you should ignore corbo  [2019-1-30. : 5:21 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Anyway, I think the whole mapping vs modding thing can come down to one age old adage "Different strokes for different folks." I think my position has been misconstrued a bit - I never said maps can't be fun, or that people shouldn't make them or even that I don't enjoy them. My point (oh so long ago) was simply to object to the idea that Nude put forth that the systems in UMS maps are "new gameplay" whereas mods that create new gameplay are "gimmicks"[2019-1-30. : 5:19 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: That is literally a difference of one extra button press. And yet this is suddenly now clunky. I disagree with you here Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Often we're talking about simply one additional key press here. That's enough to be clunky? For instance pressing your hotkey for Stargate and then pressing the hotkey to build the unit (cast spell) versus simply clicking a hotkey in DOTA to cast a spell? The spell cast interface is just a small part of it, I think there are a lot of other issues like awkward menu/inventory/dialogue systems, trying to stretch a 256x256 map into a game world, lack of visual distinction, limitations on gameplay effects. Different maps suffer from these problems to different extents of course.[2019-1-30. : 5:14 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: I don't think there's anything clunky about RUSH's Dark Swarm mechanic utilised as shoot em up gameplay either Rush is actually pretty good, imo. There are definitely some rough edges, but I think for the most part it does a good job.[2019-1-30. : 5:11 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: I'd agree with you that something like, say, a platformer is clunky as hell but not, for instance, a bound map. I think a bound is pretty clunky, you have to fight SC pathfinding issues the whole time you're playing[2019-1-30. : 5:10 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: MOBAs are RTS-adjacent but RPGs are not? Even though Diablo came directly on the heels of Warcraft? Even though Warcraft 3 had an official RPG map, the Founding of Durotar? I think you have to surely concede this point. Yeah, MOBAs are but RPGs are not. SC has an official Zerg Soccer map but it doesn't mean SC sports maps aren't gimicks either[2019-1-30. : 5:06 pm] Corbo -- Yo, assholes saying modding is a worthless piece of shit, NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Preventing saving in EUD maps is killing long (EUD based) RPG maps. Many of which require 3+ hours to complete, and thus often people would like to play it in 2 or more sessions. Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Yeah but surely players willl want to keep their loot is it just modding itself that we should not do or can we not play mods anymore as well?[2019-1-30. : 5:01 pm] Pr0nogo -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Anyway, I think the whole mapping vs modding thing can come down to one age old adage "Different strokes for different folks." in a way sure, it comes down to what you want to your project to be. if you want it to be high quality, you'll be modding. the problem comes from people with incomplete knowledge arguing as if they had complete knowledge, especially in an attempt to convince people that mapping without modding is a superior (or even competitive) medium for any high quality project[2019-1-30. : 5:01 pm] UEDCommander -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Often we're talking about simply one additional key press here. That's enough to be clunky? For instance pressing your hotkey for Stargate and then pressing the hotkey to build the unit (cast spell) versus simply clicking a hotkey in DOTA to cast a spell? Oh yeah sure, it very much makes sense for me to select a stargate and build scout to have full health restoration[2019-1-30. : 4:59 pm] UEDCommander -- Not to mention that WC3 entirely is basically HotS, maybe somewhat more reasonable, but only somewhat[2019-1-30. : 4:59 pm] Pr0nogo -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Often we're talking about simply one additional key press here. That's enough to be clunky? For instance pressing your hotkey for Stargate and then pressing the hotkey to build the unit (cast spell) versus simply clicking a hotkey in DOTA to cast a spell? yes, it is clunky and gimmicky, because it's not integrated into the game. training a unit =/= casting a spell[2019-1-30. : 4:58 pm] UEDCommander -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: MOBAs are RTS-adjacent but RPGs are not? Even though Diablo came directly on the heels of Warcraft? Even though Warcraft 3 had an official RPG map, the Founding of Durotar? I think you have to surely concede this point. If blizzard makes something in their game, it doesn't mean it should exist, example: micro missions, which Founding basically is - one big micro mission where you can't even loose, and amount of gimmicks it has to have at least some gameplay is giant[2019-1-30. : 4:58 pm] Pr0nogo -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: MOBAs are RTS-adjacent but RPGs are not? Even though Diablo came directly on the heels of Warcraft? Even though Warcraft 3 had an official RPG map, the Founding of Durotar? I think you have to surely concede this point. warcraft 3 has no rts missions in its campaign[2019-1-30. : 4:39 pm] Oh_Man -- Anyway, I think the whole mapping vs modding thing can come down to one age old adage "Different strokes for different folks."[2019-1-30. : 4:38 pm] Oh_Man -- That is literally a difference of one extra button press. And yet this is suddenly now clunky. I disagree with you here[2019-1-30. : 4:38 pm] Oh_Man -- Often we're talking about simply one additional key press here. That's enough to be clunky? For instance pressing your hotkey for Stargate and then pressing the hotkey to build the unit (cast spell) versus simply clicking a hotkey in DOTA to cast a spell?[2019-1-30. : 4:37 pm] Oh_Man -- I don't think there's anything clunky about RUSH's Dark Swarm mechanic utilised as shoot em up gameplay either[2019-1-30. : 4:36 pm] Oh_Man -- I'd agree with you that something like, say, a platformer is clunky as hell but not, for instance, a bound map.[2019-1-30. : 4:36 pm] Oh_Man -- MOBAs are RTS-adjacent but RPGs are not? Even though Diablo came directly on the heels of Warcraft? Even though Warcraft 3 had an official RPG map, the Founding of Durotar? I think you have to surely concede this point.[2019-1-30. : 4:14 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Bastards... Suicidal InsanitySuicidal Insanity shouted: Oh_Man That is just limit of a static array, I've ask em to double the size, no response Even if they did update the size of the array, it probably wouldn't be compatible with EUDs... [2019-1-30. : 4:08 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: To say it is fitting a square peg into a round whole is a poverty of imagination. You forget the MOBA genre was born here Nah, it's being realistic about design. Stray too far from RTS design and the clunkiness of trying to force the engine to be something it's not is going to impede gameplay. MOBAs are "RTS-adjacent" enough that I think they work.[2019-1-30. : 4:04 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Perhaps true but my main complaint with modders is they seem to have only the basic grasp of triggers. Maybe someone can show me a mod otherwise but it's all basic bitch vanilla SC gameplay with modified graphics Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: There really is no reason you could not be a modder and make an rpg or platformer or puzzle game or anything IDK why you're harping on triggers and maps, there are so many mods that have neither of those things.[2019-1-30. : 3:49 pm] Voyager7456 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: What SC RPGs have you played anyway. The more I think about it the more I realise there are many Diabloesque RPGs. Tenebrous, Death Knights, Spellsword I've played plenty of SC RPGs, including most of what you listed. What I said was I haven't seen a *good* implementation.[2019-1-30. : 1:21 pm] Corbo -- MooseMoose shouted: Nekron mad, but not wrong Oh_Man madder, but not wrong Nekron maddest, but not wrong ok[2019-1-30. : 11:34 am]  Moose -- NekronNekron shouted: beacuse i clearly havent played your RPG LMAO i might as well ask if you played my campaign, seeing the shoutbox we both arent interested in each other's work mad, but not wrong Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Nekron well u are speaking from ignorance then so we shall end the convo madder, but not wrong NekronNekron shouted: you haven't demonstated any knowledge about modding and you're calling me ignorant? maddest, but not wrong[2019-1-30. : 10:22 am] Suicidal Insanity -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Now if only we could solve nooks and crannies... That is just limit of a static array, I've ask em to double the size, no response [2019-1-30. : 10:18 am] Nekron -- marines/ghosts/ hydras/dragoons sometimes freeze when youre ordering them to attack[2019-1-30. : 10:00 am] Wormer -- So yeah, I believe CText utilizes the status message to display multi-lined text and 0x00640B58 ( see http://farty1billion.dyndns.org/euddb/?pg=entry&id=827 )[2019-1-30. : 9:22 am] Wormer -- NekronNekron shouted: and AI can actually try to prepare attacks here unless you block it off Hell no. I was playing The Long Dark and Brood War on hunters a little :-)[2019-1-30. : 9:21 am] Wormer -- NekronNekron shouted: you could also marvel at how Ashworld considers all of this pathable https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/413095856896606208/535915972817584149/unknown.png gosh![2019-1-30. : 9:21 am] Nekron -- and AI can actually try to prepare attacks here unless you block it off[2019-1-30. : 9:21 am] Nekron -- you could also marvel at how Ashworld considers all of this pathable https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/413095856896606208/535915972817584149/unknown.png |
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