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[2017-4-13. : 8:34 pm] Zoan -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: looking at the various roman emperors and deciding they were all evil bastards because they did nothing to try and stop slavery, is a rather pointless waste of time Well, the point that I was making was that only this part of them was evil[2017-4-13. : 8:34 pm]  Lanthanide -- it doesn't lead to any greater understanding of roman society, those emperors, or their place and power within it[2017-4-13. : 8:34 pm] Lanthanide -- looking at the various roman emperors and deciding they were all evil bastards because they did nothing to try and stop slavery, is a rather pointless waste of time[2017-4-13. : 8:32 pm] Lanthanide -- so there really wasn't a point behind all this discussion except to state the obivous[2017-4-13. : 8:32 pm] Lanthanide -- oh, so you're just making an obvious statement with no follow up[2017-4-13. : 8:32 pm] Zoan -- I refer you back to this comment ZoanZoan shouted: ;o racism is wrong and was wrong, even if it was 'socially acceptable' [2017-4-13. : 8:31 pm] Zoan -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: Zoan and... what? The presidents who advocated slavery, etc. were wrong in doing so.[2017-4-13. : 8:30 pm] Lanthanide -- ZoanZoan shouted: ;o racism is wrong and was wrong, even if it was 'socially acceptable' and... what?[2017-4-13. : 8:29 pm]  KrayZee -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: it doesn't affect the past No, of course not. It affects the present and the future.[2017-4-13. : 8:29 pm] Zoan -- ;o racism is wrong and was wrong, even if it was 'socially acceptable'[2017-4-13. : 8:28 pm] KrayZee -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: they may appear to be wrongdoings from a modern viewpoint, but they may not have been wrongdoings at the time There are many people back then who have the same viewpoints as we do in today's world.[2017-4-13. : 8:28 pm] Lanthanide -- I'm really not sure what the point of this discussion is; obviously a modern viewpoint on the past is a modern viewpoint[2017-4-13. : 8:28 pm] Zoan -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: they may appear to be wrongdoings from a modern viewpoint, but they may not have been wrongdoings at the time I disagree with that. If everyone says something isn't wrong that doesn't mean it isn't wrong[2017-4-13. : 8:27 pm] Lanthanide -- for example in Roman society in party, slavery was simply a fact of life[2017-4-13. : 8:27 pm] Lanthanide -- they may appear to be wrongdoings from a modern viewpoint, but they may not have been wrongdoings at the time[2017-4-13. : 8:27 pm] KrayZee -- You can't just dismiss the wrongdoings and still consider those as 'good guys' in that particular era.[2017-4-13. : 8:27 pm] Zoan -- Or in other words, some things that presidents did in the past are wrong regardless of if it was socially acceptable at that time? Is that another way to phrase it?[2017-4-13. : 8:26 pm] Lanthanide -- but it's not fair to judge leaders from the past from a modern viewpoint[2017-4-13. : 8:26 pm] KrayZee -- My point is that regardless of opinion on politics and leaders in the past, what matters is reflecting what they have done.[2017-4-13. : 8:24 pm] KrayZee -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: Hitler was judged to be a monster at the time, by other western countries Yeah, and many of those in the past such as the Japanese who endured the Internment Camps sure didn't think FDR is a good person.[2017-4-13. : 8:23 pm] Ashamed -- KrayZeeKrayZee shouted: Ashamed He forgot which country he approved the bombing.... he mentioned Iraq in an interview. The fuck. Yeah and fox reporter said syria right away to correct him lol ha[2017-4-13. : 8:23 pm] KrayZee -- AshamedAshamed shouted: ok perhaps this isis makes more sense... But syria doesn't.. also Him not waiting for ally support doesn't either. He forgot which country he approved the bombing.... he mentioned Iraq in an interview. The fuck.[2017-4-13. : 8:23 pm] Lanthanide -- Hitler was judged to be a monster at the time, by other western countries[2017-4-13. : 8:22 pm] Ashamed -- ok perhaps this isis makes more sense... But syria doesn't.. also Him not waiting for ally support doesn't either.[2017-4-13. : 8:21 pm] KrayZee -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: all you've basically said is that cultural norms change over time? If there's ever a society existing in the future, their judgments will reflect on what they think of the past. So what you're trying to say, if Hitler is spectacular among Germans in the late 1930s and early 1940s, he's considered a strong, compassionate leader in the present?[2017-4-13. : 8:19 pm] Ashamed -- ZoanZoan shouted: Ashamed While he was campaigning he said he'd be tough on ISIS. How is this not keeping in line with campaign promises. He said he would be tough on terrorist in our country and isis here. Even specifically said we would stay out of countries, unless nato allies,etc started paying to help. He has now bombed two places... This is far from what he campaigned on.[2017-4-13. : 8:19 pm] Lanthanide -- all you've basically said is that cultural norms change over time?[2017-4-13. : 8:18 pm] KrayZee -- ZoanZoan shouted: KrayZee Yea, cuz America is filled with racists and and all of them voted for Trump, is that right? You're putting words in my mouth.[2017-4-13. : 8:18 pm] KrayZee -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: KrayZee actually modern historians do exactly what I just said - they view a culture by the standards of the time. They don't impose modern views and make judgements (or try not to do that as much as possible) It doesn't change the fact that our judgments reflects towards the past. George Washington can still be considered among the top 3 Presidents of all time, it doesn't change the fact that schools are considered to be renamed in today's world.[2017-4-13. : 8:17 pm] Zoan -- KrayZeeKrayZee shouted: Lanthanide In fact, I wasn't even surprised one bit Clinton lost. Yea, cuz America is filled with racists and and all of them voted for Trump, is that right?[2017-4-13. : 8:16 pm] KrayZee -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: you have a very sheltered view of how the world works In fact, I wasn't even surprised one bit Clinton lost.[2017-4-13. : 8:16 pm] Lanthanide -- except you can be racist, but *less* racist than the prevailing culture, and by that standard you should be judged in a modern frame as 'good'[2017-4-13. : 8:15 pm] Zoan -- So don't just label "This president == bad," but "This part of this president == bad"[2017-4-13. : 8:15 pm] Lanthanide -- KrayZeeKrayZee shouted: Lanthanide No, it's not short-sighted. If racism is considered 'normal' in those particular eras doesn't necessarily reflect how modern historians view them in today's world. actually modern historians do exactly what I just said - they view a culture by the standards of the time. They don't impose modern views and make judgements (or try not to do that as much as possible)[2017-4-13. : 8:15 pm] Zoan -- I think racist presidents from the past are bad with respect to their racist values, but some of the other things they did might not be necessarily bad.[2017-4-13. : 8:15 pm] KrayZee -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: so you expect a racist culture, to elect someone who is not racist, to lead them all to a greater future? No, of course not.[2017-4-13. : 8:14 pm] Lanthanide -- so you expect a racist culture, to elect someone who is not racist, to lead them all to a greater future?[2017-4-13. : 8:13 pm] KrayZee -- If they haven't been renamed yet, there are considerations renaming all schools that are named after slave owners.[2017-4-13. : 8:10 pm] KrayZee -- Regardless of how long ago the events took place, our judgments will be present. For example, we're replacing Andrew Jackson on the $20 bill and apparently some schools who even had names like George Washington had to be renamed.[2017-4-13. : 8:07 pm] KrayZee -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: *everyone* was racist, it was the prevailing social construct, so acting like a president is somehow bad for reflecting the public opinion at the time is rather short-sighted No, it's not short-sighted. If racism is considered 'normal' in those particular eras doesn't necessarily reflect how modern historians view them in today's world.[2017-4-13. : 7:52 pm] Lanthanide -- *everyone* was racist, it was the prevailing social construct, so acting like a president is somehow bad for reflecting the public opinion at the time is rather short-sighted[2017-4-13. : 7:51 pm] Lanthanide -- KrayZeeKrayZee shouted: I'm actually curious how many Donald Trumps the US has elected in the past 240 years. There's a lot of racists, including people such as Andrew Jackson, Harry Truman approved dropping nukes, and so on. Andrew Johnson said "This is a country for white men, and by God, as long as I am President, it shall be a government for white men. Everyone would, and must, admit that the white race is superior to the black." they were simply products of their time; arguably Trump is too (from the anti-establishment angle)[2017-4-13. : 7:45 pm] Corbo -- VraelVrael shouted: CORBO U WANNA FITE? 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