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[2017-12-24. : 1:30 am] Freakling -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Excalibur then it shouldn't be a problem for him to show proof that the pathing algorithm was designed to act weirdly. The problem is not any claim I supposedly make but that you mistake it for something different.[2017-12-24. : 1:24 am] Freakling -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Freakling gotta have to ask for proof for your claim that the pathing algorithm is supposed to all these crazy things. What? trying to walk around obstacles and keeping formations of units in close proximity (aka. magic boxing)? You have actually played Brood War at some point, right? Or what kind of proof are you looking for? You could look for the relevant function in the OpenBW code for technical details.[2017-12-24. : 1:17 am]  Lanthanide -- right, so passing between two pillars should be quite possible, although moving to stand between them may not be[2017-12-24. : 1:09 am] Suicidal Insanity -- I think allowed movement from tile to tile requires at least 2 microtiles pathable on each side[2017-12-24. : 12:43 am] Suicidal Insanity -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: NudeRaider I'm pretty sure the pathing is a product of its time (because hardware succed or whatever) but unintentionally created deep, balanced gameplay According to a dev the pathiong is a bunch of hacks on top of hacks on top of hacks to get something working[2017-12-24. : 12:43 am]  lil-Inferno -- I remember Psionic_Storm showing me a map with two pillars on Twilight, and though it was clear there's a ton of space in between the pillars, a dragoon would walk around them instead of walking between them[2017-12-24. : 12:42 am] Suicidal Insanity -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: did you get color cycling fixed? I haven't worked on that yet, last 1.5 weeks has been redoing sprite / image rendering / dirty rect logic[2017-12-24. : 12:36 am] Lanthanide -- here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/429573-broodwar-and-starcraft-2-pathing[2017-12-24. : 12:32 am] Lanthanide -- they could have retained their fluid pathing, while giving a few units quirky movement styles for variety, but instead everything moves in constant speed from point A to B[2017-12-24. : 12:31 am] Lanthanide -- IMO SC2 missing an easy trick, though, and that's giving units different movement characteristics, eg the way hydras in SC1 slide and lurch[2017-12-24. : 12:30 am] Lanthanide -- I suspect there'll never be another game like SC1 though, because any game that released with that sort of pathing today would just be ignored, it'd never build up the critical mass of players to become popular[2017-12-24. : 12:29 am] Lanthanide -- obviously hacks on top of hacks makes for a system that overall is unweildly and difficult to predict[2017-12-24. : 12:29 am] Lanthanide -- eg, play testers found a paritcular case where the path finding locked up or worked really poorly, so the developer would identify specific steps to take to avoid that particular problem[2017-12-24. : 12:27 am] Lanthanide -- so it ended up being a really complicated finite state machine with special handling for corner cases[2017-12-24. : 12:27 am] Lanthanide -- so they never had the time available to pull out the pathing system and re-implement it from scratch[2017-12-24. : 12:27 am] Lanthanide -- anyway it said the reason the pathing was so screwed up in SC1, is because it was always just "1 month" away from release[2017-12-24. : 12:26 am] Lanthanide -- I read an in-depth article on the pathing in SC1, comparing it to SC2 and identifying with SC1 is considered the superior game[2017-12-24. : 12:18 am] DarkenedFantasies -- because it was destined to be used by me for this one time[2017-12-24. : 12:07 am] lil-Inferno -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Excalibur then it shouldn't be a problem for him to show proof that the pathing algorithm was designed to act weirdly. I'm pretty sure the pathing is a product of its time (because hardware succed or whatever) but unintentionally created deep, balanced gameplay[2017-12-24. : 12:03 am] Suicidal Insanity -- Yay, disabled all rendering except unit palette, and that is now sort of working. .... progress ![2017-12-23. : 11:49 pm] NudeRaider -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: Much in the way that 99% of people who make UMS maps don't operate on the kind of levels Lethal and Tux did, Freak is account for problems in melee that I don't think have ever been recognized, even by Korean 'pro' mappers at the height of BW popularity. sounds like he's coming from a gameplay perspective, whereas when talk about a bug when code works differently from what is expected or intended[2017-12-23. : 11:47 pm] NudeRaider -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: NudeRaider Nude, you're familiar with Freaky's work right? I would say aside from someone like Heinermann, Freaky probably knows more about pathing than just about anyone. You should see some of his analysis on BMWN. Way more in depth than anything I've seen any SENner do in terms of pathing research. then it shouldn't be a problem for him to show proof that the pathing algorithm was designed to act weirdly.[2017-12-23. : 11:42 pm] Excalibur -- Ya. I'm glad it went well for sure. SEN needs more goings-ons and such.[2017-12-23. : 11:36 pm] Excalibur -- Much in the way that 99% of people who make UMS maps don't operate on the kind of levels Lethal and Tux did, Freak is account for problems in melee that I don't think have ever been recognized, even by Korean 'pro' mappers at the height of BW popularity.[2017-12-23. : 11:35 pm] Excalibur -- Not to mention other areas Freak is super knowledgeable on. Like resource and tile mechanics.[2017-12-23. : 11:32 pm] Excalibur -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Freakling gotta have to ask for proof for your claim that the pathing algorithm is supposed to all these crazy things. Nude, you're familiar with Freaky's work right? I would say aside from someone like Heinermann, Freaky probably knows more about pathing than just about anyone. You should see some of his analysis on BMWN. Way more in depth than anything I've seen any SENner do in terms of pathing research.[2017-12-23. : 11:10 pm] NudeRaider -- FreaklingFreakling shouted: It is not a bug, as it works as intended. It's simply a matter of the unit behaviour/pathfinding algorithms being so primitive. They probably did not weigh the drawbacks compared to alternative algorithms that might not have existed at the time or were just to expensive to run on most existing machines. gotta have to ask for proof for your claim that the pathing algorithm is supposed to all these crazy things.[2017-12-23. : 9:59 pm] MTiger156 -- join me for the public debut of my maps (Diplomacy & Assassins, Trouble in Terrorist Town, and Assassinate Ajit Pai) at 6:30 CNT in channel donuts@USEast. i promise a hilarious and meme-filled night[2017-12-23. : 8:51 pm] Freakling -- Well, actual pathfinding (i.e. calculating the "shortest" path), unit order and collision handling and magic boxing are all involved. WC3 has better path calculation, handles collisions differently (arguably better) and can use two formation settings, which is not so different from magic boxing with an automated unit sorting functions on top of it.[2017-12-23. : 8:38 pm] Pr0nogo -- in war3 that doesn't happen, they wait for each other and navigating anything is 1000% more frustrating than sc[2017-12-23. : 8:38 pm] Pr0nogo -- if i click a group of units in sc they go to the place without any mechanics besides the pathfinding getting involved[2017-12-23. : 7:50 pm] Suicidal Insanity -- You should write SC bots - full control and more matches for me to watch on my other monitor[2017-12-23. : 7:12 pm] Freakling -- What do you mean by "full control" then and which game do you think provides you with more of it?[2017-12-23. : 6:36 pm] Pr0nogo -- i'd rather have full control over my units and suffer the consequences of low apm/misclicks than get my dick sucked by formations and autopathing that take my control away[2017-12-23. : 6:29 pm] Freakling -- Not to forget that WC3 brought forth Dota, and body blocking as a key mechanic.[2017-12-23. : 6:18 pm] Freakling -- Yes, but at least in WC3 blocked units dutifully wait in line and then move on. In SC they tend to run off on all kinds of weird trajectories, never to be found again by less experienced players.[2017-12-23. : 6:01 pm] Suicidal Insanity -- FreaklingFreakling shouted: In what respect? It's definitely got rid of the units strolling off when their path is blocked aspect. In War3 your fast units were always blocked by your slow units, so instead of going around they would run into the slow units, stop, run into them again, stop again. Worst part was pathing with fast heros.[2017-12-23. : 5:37 pm] Freakling -- In what respect? It's definitely got rid of the units strolling off when their path is blocked aspect.[2017-12-23. : 5:00 pm] Freakling -- Suicidal InsanitySuicidal Insanity shouted: can't be worse than wc3 Are you suggesting WC3's pathfinding is worse than BW's?![2017-12-23. : 3:44 pm] Freakling -- I always say: BW pathfinding is bumper cars, SC2 pathfinding is laminar fluid dynamics and has its own bunch of associated problems.[2017-12-23. : 3:42 pm] Freakling -- It is not a bug, as it works as intended. It's simply a matter of the unit behaviour/pathfinding algorithms being so primitive. They probably did not weigh the drawbacks compared to alternative algorithms that might not have existed at the time or were just to expensive to run on most existing machines.[2017-12-23. : 3:16 pm] NudeRaider -- I'm sure you'd be like okay, increasing skill level is a desirable goal but I'm sure well find other ways than to program to deliberately misbehave. Also I don't think any dev has ever claimed it was intentional. Meaning it's a bug that has retroactively been incorporated into gameplay.[2017-12-23. : 3:10 pm] NudeRaider -- ... But if you created something new and were considering how you want your units to behave you'd come to the conclusion that you want them to go haywire in certain situation s but not others "to increase the skill level"[2017-12-23. : 3:07 pm] NudeRaider -- FreaklingFreakling shouted: NudeRaider Well, pretty much any one playing BW melee seriously. I guess I did ask for who, but what I really meant is why would someone take this position? I mean sure, after 20 years microing units so they don't go in the opposite direction of where you ordered them has become 2nd nature and you wouldn't want to change it because that'd mean relearning your micro...[2017-12-23. : 11:02 am] Suicidal Insanity -- I now snapshot the state and use the snapshot to determine what to draw and what areas of the previous frame changed ... yay[2017-12-23. : 10:56 am] Suicidal Insanity -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: Suicidal Insanity o i did that too Its not actually the iscript handling, but grabbing + displaying the sprite + image states. which means it touches every window / class that draws something[2017-12-23. : 9:37 am] Suicidal Insanity -- HeinermannHeinermann shouted: Suicidal Insanity Copy paste OpenBW code again A: why do you say again? B: Wouldn't help - I'm changing the code to solve a problem with the brush contents + multiple map views, both of which openBW doesn't have [2017-12-23. : 5:37 am] lil-Inferno -- MTiger156MTiger156 shouted: lil-Inferno is it cool if i spectate? i can join the tourney as a last-moment thing, if needed Yeah of course, spectators are welcome as are new participants[2017-12-23. : 5:20 am] Pr0nogo -- I'm still new to taking politics seriously and not just saying Dem0nDem0n shouted: It's w/e tbh though so w/e[2017-12-23. : 5:19 am] Pr0nogo -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: Also, I think taxes should have been left the same or even increased. This bull market still hasn't crashed after all these years, unemployment is dropping, and the economy is still strong ... fix that deficit and chip away at that debt while things are good. Too bad raising taxes is political suicide these days (unless you have to fund entry into another world war), but they can't go down forever. I don't mind increased taxes if the need is demonstrated but I'm wary of giving the government more money when they seem to misuse what they already are given[2017-12-23. : 4:57 am] MTiger156 -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: http://www.staredit.net/topic/17512/ memelee tourney is it cool if i spectate? i can join the tourney as a last-moment thing, if needed |
an emote LMAO
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