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[2018-4-28. : 2:24 pm]  Corbo -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Modding: modifying the behavior of StarCraft/Broodwar with 3rd party programs – or by using exploits to make non-trivial changes to executable code – and developing content to be played with those modifications. by that definition eud maps are still mapping, if you wanted to express something else, the mod is the eud loader itself. The fact that you execute a mod to play a map does not make mapping modding. It makes mapping remain mapping. Maaaany mods have included maps to be played with and that does not mean those maps are mods, those maps also do not function properly without said mod. But they are still maps.[2018-4-28. : 2:23 pm]  Voyager7456 -- Modding IMO is the modification of code or data files, aside from scenario files[2018-4-28. : 2:23 pm] jjf28 -- for instance, if you managed to make memory changes in a "patch map" which changed all of the terrain colors and walkability states, and that persisted over to other maps...[2018-4-28. : 2:21 pm]  Moose -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Voyager7456 jjf28 I think there's using an exploit, then using an exploit to radically change how the game works You mean like hyper triggers? :trollface:[2018-4-28. : 2:21 pm] jjf28 -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: jjf28 also disagree with using EUDs to create persistent changes counting as modding jjf28jjf28 shouted: Mini Moose 2707 I'd say 1.) What's needed to play it 2.) The extent to which exploits are used I think there's using an exploit, then using an exploit to radically change how the game works[2018-4-28. : 2:20 pm] jjf28 -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: So, a thought experiment: Someone sits you down at a computer to play SC, game is already in-progress. Weird shit is going on and it's not obvious where it's an exe-hack to load a different MPQ or EUD shenanigans. If you can't tell without leaving SC or quitting the current game, what is the difference? the difference is technical and not something you can accurately determine just by playing, you can make guesss at what it's doing[2018-4-28. : 2:19 pm] Voyager7456 -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: also I'm not completely satisfied with jjf28 , I think there's a second line (besides the executable code changes) where using exploits to intentionally persist memory changes into other maps played would also count as modding also disagree with using EUDs to create persistent changes counting as modding[2018-4-28. : 2:16 pm] Moose -- So, a thought experiment: Someone sits you down at a computer to play SC, game is already in-progress. Weird shit is going on and it's not obvious where it's an exe-hack to load a different MPQ or EUD shenanigans. If you can't tell without leaving SC or quitting the current game, what is the difference?[2018-4-28. : 2:15 pm] Voyager7456 -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Mapping: developing map files that can be played on vanilla StarCraft/BroodWar. Disagree with the "vanilla" part.[2018-4-28. : 2:11 pm] jjf28 -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: So are the real distinguishing criteria 1. what users need to do to play and 2. is it "officially supported" (though probably lacking official documentation) I'd say 1.) What's needed to play it 2.) The extent to which exploits are used[2018-4-28. : 2:09 pm] Moose -- So are the real distinguishing criteria 1. what users need to do to play and 2. is it "officially supported" (though probably lacking official documentation)[2018-4-28. : 2:07 pm] jjf28 -- now that EUDs are no longer exploits in remastered, they're never modding imo[2018-4-28. : 2:04 pm] jjf28 -- and there's not really a methodology to how I decide where these things go/where the lines are, I'm just asserting that they exist and are defined as such[2018-4-28. : 2:03 pm] jjf28 -- SCMLoader is an obvious case of a 3rd party program being required for repeated use of the content, EUDs are a grey area, but I defined two lines where they cross into modding territory back before remastered: non-trivial executable code changes and memory changes that intentionally persist across multiple maps[2018-4-28. : 2:01 pm] Moose -- So for the sake of debate, how do we decide where things like EUD triggers (both pre and post various patches and the "safe" remaster versions) and SCMLoader maps go[2018-4-28. : 1:58 pm] jjf28 -- Modding: creating content which requires 3rd party programs, changes to StarCraft/Broodwar game files (excluding maps), or the use of exploits to make non-trivial code changes/persistent memory changes, to be repeatedly played.[2018-4-28. : 1:33 pm] jjf28 -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: jjf28 > make map with chkdraft > load map in SC > SC behave differently > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ u right, I'll have to get more specific[2018-4-28. : 1:29 pm] Moose -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Modding: modifying the behavior of StarCraft/Broodwar with 3rd party programs – or by using exploits to make non-trivial changes to executable code – and developing content to be played with those modifications. > make map with chkdraft > load map in SC > SC behave differently > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯[2018-4-28. : 1:26 pm] jjf28 -- also I'm not completely satisfied with jjf28jjf28 shouted: Modding: modifying the behavior of StarCraft/Broodwar with 3rd party programs – or by using exploits to make non-trivial changes to executable code – and developing content to be played with those modifications. , I think there's a second line (besides the executable code changes) where using exploits to intentionally persist memory changes into other maps played would also count as modding[2018-4-28. : 1:21 pm] jjf28 -- Dem0nDem0n shouted: who didn't know that Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: it's 100% mapping, only you start your client differently imo[2018-4-28. : 1:13 pm] jjf28 -- Modding: modifying the behavior of StarCraft/Broodwar with 3rd party programs – or by using exploits to make non-trivial changes to executable code – and developing content to be played with those modifications.[2018-4-28. : 1:13 pm] jjf28 -- Mapping: developing map files that can be played on vanilla StarCraft/BroodWar.[2018-4-28. : 12:50 pm] Corbo -- Even if you make it in staredit it will turn up to not be vanilla sc so all mapping is not mapping tbh[2018-4-28. : 5:27 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- a lot of launchers either had support for EUDEnabler or just had it built in[2018-4-28. : 5:25 am] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Voyager7456 which isn't mapping. uhhhhhhhhhhh[2018-4-28. : 2:35 am] thekian -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: thekian Lanthanide roiling jjf28jjf28 shouted: hmm.. wrong sense of the word but I liked that it sounded like boiling broiling [2018-4-28. : 2:32 am] ClansAreForGays -- Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: when me and sc jesus are doing a better job of remastering their game there's a problem :eyeroll:[2018-4-28. : 1:56 am] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: NudeRaider Except EUD actions were always available with EUDEnabler. And more powerful than the ones SC:R supports. which isn't mapping.[2018-4-28. : 1:42 am] jjf28 -- hmm.. wrong sense of the word but I liked that it sounded like boiling [2018-4-28. : 1:41 am] jjf28 -- thekianthekian shouted: mad LanthanideLanthanide shouted: heated roiling[2018-4-27. : 8:06 pm] Moose -- ☐ Not REKT NeivNeiv shouted: pls don't use my name to make up for your poorly expressed arguments :l ☑ REKT NeivNeiv shouted: I don't like to see myself associated with your arguments where the few good points are padded up with a bunch of garbage ☑ North by NorthREKT[2018-4-27. : 4:43 pm] Broflamingo -- NeivNeiv shouted: true, the approximation algorithm can be customized if you know graphics programming lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: Neiv fuccing rekt NeivNeiv shouted: pls don't use my name to make up for your poorly expressed arguments :l BRONAGE[2018-4-27. : 4:05 pm] lil-Inferno -- NeivNeiv shouted: pls don't use my name to make up for your poorly expressed arguments :l fuccing rekt[2018-4-27. : 4:03 pm] Neiv -- I don't like to see myself associated with your arguments where the few good points are padded up with a bunch of garbage[2018-4-27. : 3:59 pm] Neiv -- true, the approximation algorithm can be customized if you know graphics programming[2018-4-27. : 3:59 pm] Pr0nogo -- i also don't really see how mentioning your work is propping up my arguments either, SC:R offers nothing of value to me but it encouraged you to create tools i can now use to create better projects[2018-4-27. : 3:57 pm] Pr0nogo -- as i discovered in my extensive testing the extended pcolors also don't work on remastered nearly as well, but that's the engine's fault (only uses the first value of the pcolorset and approximates from there, instead of 1.16.1 rendering with all 8 colors)[2018-4-27. : 3:56 pm] Neiv -- the main reason i haven't bothered is because the better portable way would make the debug plugin display nonsensical values[2018-4-27. : 3:53 pm] Neiv -- also the plugins are literally made to be equal on any version they run on[2018-4-27. : 3:52 pm] Neiv -- pls don't use my name to make up for your poorly expressed arguments :l[2018-4-27. : 3:07 pm] Pr0nogo -- when me and sc jesus are doing a better job of remastering their game there's a problem[2018-4-27. : 3:07 pm] Pr0nogo -- the only good thing to come out of SC:R for my money was that it encouraged neiv to work more on plugins (that work better on 1.16.1 :DDDD) and as a result we have more engine functionality[2018-4-27. : 2:46 pm] Voyager7456 -- I think if you asked the folks on Fish whether mappers lost with SC:R, they would have a different opinion.[2018-4-27. : 2:45 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Voyager7456 I don't know, seeing Lanths DS Night I'd argue basically bringing EUD actions back is a big deal. But I agree, overall the modding community probably lost with SC:R. (Mappers didn't) Except EUD actions were always available with EUDEnabler. And more powerful than the ones SC:R supports.[2018-4-27. : 2:30 pm] Pr0nogo -- if you think that it's not possible to have a negative overall opinion of sc:r and simultaneously be a reasonable individual you should probably join jayborino's discord server |
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