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[2014-9-01. : 11:48 pm]  Jack -- RoyRoy shouted: We have plenty of small parties for you to vote on. Green, Libertarian, Communist, Reform, Socialist, etc. You can vote for them if you want, but if you see a "lesser of two evils" between the main two parties, your vote is better used there. But they're both so evil, I don't think I could support either[2014-9-01. : 11:48 pm]  jjf28 -- yea, but if it's spend a few hours helping check abuse or suffer a 1% loss in their resources[2014-9-01. : 11:47 pm] payne -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: payne people actually doing their civic duty, so ridiculously ideal did you misquote? I'm lost [2014-9-01. : 11:47 pm] Sand Wraith -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: jjf28 Civic duty? I don't think that accurately reflects what would go on. It's more like if a bunch of students lived in the same apartment, if no one cleans up, they will collectively live in a shithole. They can then collectively decide to either clean it up or leave it as it is. And aboslutely, some people are flaky about this. I might attribute this to capitalism/liberalism/hedonism whereby work is something abstract that must be done and is a labour of pain rather than love or duty.[2014-9-01. : 11:47 pm] Roy -- We have plenty of small parties for you to vote on. Green, Libertarian, Communist, Reform, Socialist, etc. You can vote for them if you want, but if you see a "lesser of two evils" between the main two parties, your vote is better used there.[2014-9-01. : 11:47 pm] rayNimagi -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: I think the closest an independent party has ever come to winning was Ross Perot with like 20%. Or Abraham Lincoln, back in 1860[2014-9-01. : 11:46 pm] lil-Inferno -- I think the closest an independent party has ever come to winning was Ross Perot with like 20%.[2014-9-01. : 11:46 pm] Sand Wraith -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: woops, Sand Wraith Civic duty? I don't think that accurately reflects what would go on. It's more like if a bunch of students lived in the same apartment, if no one cleans up, they will collectively live in a shithole. They can then collectively decide to either clean it up or leave it as it is.[2014-9-01. : 11:46 pm] payne -- JackJack shouted: Well, that's the USA's libertarians, but the philosophical movement in general tends to be advocates of very small central governments. In the case of anarchist libertarians, there's no government at all. In the case of what wikipedia tells me is minarchism, you still have a government, just it's very small and exists only to enforce the law and possibly run an army if needed. capitalism => property => requirement of a police force to enforce the property laws. How can one be anarcho-capitalist? ("anarchist libertarian")[2014-9-01. : 11:46 pm] Fire_Kame -- lil-Infernolil-Inferno shouted: Yes, but they have no chance in hell of winning. Gary Johnson took 1%!![2014-9-01. : 11:46 pm] rayNimagi -- JackJack shouted: And do those parties ever get seats in parliament, or the equivalent you have there? There's like ~3 independents in Congress out of ~500[2014-9-01. : 11:45 pm] Jack -- And do those parties ever get seats in parliament, or the equivalent you have there?[2014-9-01. : 11:45 pm] Fire_Kame -- JackJack shouted: No Kame, that's the libertarians that you know. I don't actually know other libertarians, I stay away from them. They put me on mailing lists.[2014-9-01. : 11:45 pm] rayNimagi -- JackJack shouted: I don't think the GOP is libertarian at all, they're all about that big government from what I've seen. But the GOP is the conservative party (the Democrats are the liberals)[2014-9-01. : 11:45 pm] Jack -- If I were in the USA I doubt I'd vote for either of your big parties. Have you got any smaller parties?[2014-9-01. : 11:45 pm] Fire_Kame -- JackJack shouted: I don't think the GOP is libertarian at all, they're all about that big government from what I've seen. funny how that works.[2014-9-01. : 11:45 pm] Jack -- Roy, yes, but they still have laws to uphold. In some societies those laws might include anti-abortion laws, in others it might not.[2014-9-01. : 11:45 pm] Fire_Kame -- paynepayne shouted: Fire_Kame Kame, what is GOP? "Grand Old Party," or the republican party. It is hard to refer to them as republicans though, because the term varies country to country. At some point America flipped which one was conservative and which was liberal. [2014-9-01. : 11:44 pm] payne -- ZoanZoan shouted: Sand WraithRight! Those people are the people that communism assumes are good. quit... using... the... word... communism... like... that !!!!!![2014-9-01. : 11:44 pm] Sand Wraith -- ZoanZoan shouted: Sand WraithWhat if they just act like good people to gain people's approval? It just takes one liar to do so and gain power. Again, the primary point to keep in mind is that if they abuse their power at any point, they will be brought down by the community. Whether or not they abuse their power is up to the communtiy to decide.[2014-9-01. : 11:44 pm] Jack -- I don't think the GOP is libertarian at all, they're all about that big government from what I've seen.[2014-9-01. : 11:44 pm]  Moose -- GOP = Grand Old Party, aka the Republican Party in the United States[2014-9-01. : 11:44 pm] jjf28 -- woops, Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: Sand Wraith Building on this idea: it would be a social responsibility of all to partake in the community. There is no need to assume "goodness" of people. The only necessary thing is group faith/trust. See game theory. [2014-9-01. : 11:44 pm] payne -- Fire_KameFire_Kame shouted: So that is closer to the GOP, not libertarianism Kame, what is GOP? [2014-9-01. : 11:43 pm] jjf28 -- paynepayne shouted: Jack issues of definitions are often the very source of debates. They are very important to pin point! people actually doing their civic duty, so ridiculously ideal  [2014-9-01. : 11:43 pm] payne -- ZoanZoan shouted: Sand WraithBut they would have more power than those who aren't leaders, right? Zoan, you should read about anarchism a bit and the way they see democracy ("Direct Democracy" is the key-word here)[2014-9-01. : 11:43 pm] Fire_Kame -- RoyRoy shouted: Fire_Kame Libertarians just want to decentralize the issue. "Leave it to the states" is basically their motto for the U.S. Libertarianisms also want to decriminalize a vast majority of punishable offenses and give people the most freedom to do as they wish. Their feelings on things like abortion, gay marriage, drug use, is that it is up to the individual to make these decisions; not the government.[2014-9-01. : 11:43 pm] Sand Wraith -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: Zoan Communism doesn't need to assume they are good. If what they do in practice damages other people, people will naturally rise up against that sort of influence. Abuse is checked by transparency. Building on this idea: it would be a social responsibility of all to partake in the community. There is no need to assume "goodness" of people. The only necessary thing is group faith/trust. See game theory.[2014-9-01. : 11:43 pm] Zoan -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: Zoan Communism doesn't need to assume they are good. If what they do in practice damages other people, people will naturally rise up against that sort of influence. Abuse is checked by transparency. What if they just act like good people to gain people's approval? It just takes one liar to do so and gain power.[2014-9-01. : 11:43 pm] Jack -- Well, that's the USA's libertarians, but the philosophical movement in general tends to be advocates of very small central governments. In the case of anarchist libertarians, there's no government at all. In the case of what wikipedia tells me is minarchism, you still have a government, just it's very small and exists only to enforce the law and possibly run an army if needed.[2014-9-01. : 11:43 pm] payne -- JackJack shouted: payne don't worry, just an issue of definitions, doesn't affect anything you were saying really. I'm nitpicky at times. issues of definitions are often the very source of debates. They are very important to pin point! [2014-9-01. : 11:42 pm] Sand Wraith -- ZoanZoan shouted: Sand WraithRight! Those people are the people that communism assumes are good. Communism doesn't need to assume they are good. If what they do in practice damages other people, people will naturally rise up against that sort of influence. Abuse is checked by transparency.[2014-9-01. : 11:41 pm] Sand Wraith -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: Zoan No. By community leaders I mean people who have no exclusive authority but are recognized/respected and who wish to effect social change. For example, I would say something like jjf28 among others are community leaders here at SEN because they push the boundaries of mapping.[2014-9-01. : 11:41 pm] Zoan -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: Zoan No. By community leaders I mean people who have no exclusive authority but are recognized/respected and who wish to effect social change. Right! Those people are the people that communism assumes are good.[2014-9-01. : 11:41 pm] Roy -- Fire_KameFire_Kame shouted: Which, while the GOP and Libertarianism share that, the GOP is the one who also wants to enforce rulings concerning the sanctity of marriage and conception. Libertarians just want to decentralize the issue. "Leave it to the states" is basically their motto for the U.S.[2014-9-01. : 11:40 pm] Jack -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: country gov't = federal gov't in most cases? Yeah, but you wouldn't need to have a country government. And if you did, it would be very small in comparison to modern governments.[2014-9-01. : 11:40 pm] Sand Wraith -- ZoanZoan shouted: Sand WraithBut they would have more power than those who aren't leaders, right? No. By community leaders I mean people who have no exclusive authority but are recognized/respected and who wish to effect social change.[2014-9-01. : 11:40 pm] Zoan -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: okay I'm tired I'm gonna play video games or something. Ah, don't let me stop you lol[2014-9-01. : 11:40 pm] Fire_Kame -- Which, while the GOP and Libertarianism share that, the GOP is the one who also wants to enforce rulings concerning the sanctity of marriage and conception.[2014-9-01. : 11:40 pm] Fire_Kame -- the GOP propagates minimal federal oversight in favor of state oversight.[2014-9-01. : 11:39 pm] Zoan -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: Zoan Not as far as I know. "Class" would specifically pertain to material divisions between people, such as who owns land and property, factories, mines, etc. Under communism, these resources are shared collectively, and no one person can call on an authority force (like the police or state -- same thing basically) to enforce their will. But they would have more power than those who aren't leaders, right?[2014-9-01. : 11:39 pm] Jack -- payne don't worry, just an issue of definitions, doesn't affect anything you were saying really. I'm nitpicky at times.[2014-9-01. : 11:39 pm] Jack -- Not even states necessarily, could be as localised as a county or town[2014-9-01. : 11:39 pm] Fire_Kame -- what I'm saying is that it is shooting libertarianism in the foot to say that there should be no government, but XY and Z should be criminalized[2014-9-01. : 11:39 pm] payne -- JackJack shouted: payne Politics tends to be liberal vs conservative, what you described is a system of government, not a spectrum of thought within that government (aka politics). still not sure where you are coming from[2014-9-01. : 11:39 pm] Sand Wraith -- ZoanZoan shouted: Sand WraithBut wouldn't community leaders be a type of class, which defeats the whole idea of communism? Not as far as I know. "Class" would specifically pertain to material divisions between people, such as who owns land and property, factories, mines, etc. Under communism, these resources are shared collectively, and no one person can call on an authority force (like the police or state -- same thing basically) to enforce their will.[2014-9-01. : 11:38 pm] Fire_Kame -- JackJack shouted: Fire_KameWho says there needs to be a federal government who police those laws? if it is criminalized the federal government must step in.[2014-9-01. : 11:37 pm] payne -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: payne I meant "liberal baggage" as in ideas such as individuality, hedonism, lack of social responsibilty, etc. most of the anarchist litterature nowadays indeed does look like it's coming from the Right, rather than the Left. It is interesting to note that the Left Anarchists argue that such a thing as Right Anarchism is a systematical impossibility[2014-9-01. : 11:37 pm] Zoan -- Sand WraithSand Wraith shouted: Zoan Community leaders > rulers any day of the week. But wouldn't community leaders be a type of class, which defeats the whole idea of communism? |
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