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[2019-2-02. : 6:19 pm]  Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Nekron also sure, go far beyond. That is exactly what I'm wondering you people don't do. Instead you hide your capabilities I think it's because modding self-selects for people interested in making RTS mechanics. If you were getting into SC content and you wanted to make a tug-of-war, you probably gravitated toward mapping because there's less of a learning curve, and you can make a decent tug-of-war solely though mapping. If you were interested in making good new RTS mechanics, that's much harder/impossible in UMS, so you went to modding. [2019-2-02. : 6:18 pm] Nekron -- the closest i'll ever be to adding a bossfight to the campaign is either an easteregg where you'll be able to trip into the lost probe from this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr95OHmvLUg and fight it or the fact AI uses heroes so no, nothing that fulfills your conditions. there is no appropriate place in any of the missions to add a bossfight, unless you would want to make every Torrasque encounter a 10 minute boss battle which I think would be detrimental to the core gameplay[2019-2-02. : 6:13 pm] NudeRaider -- because that's a thing I have almost never seen in mod campaigns, but dig a lot.[2019-2-02. : 6:12 pm] NudeRaider -- k. lets stop this dance of accusations. Simple question: Would you be willing and/or capable to add a boss fight into one or some of your campaign missions? You know, with weak points, parts you can shoot off/disable etc.[2019-2-02. : 6:09 pm] Nekron -- well I think you laid out your views on what constitutes gameplay changes pretty well by now[2019-2-02. : 6:09 pm]  Dem0n -- That's like saying why don't most mappers try to push the limits of mapping instead of making basic shit. And don't try to say most mappers do because they definitely don't.[2019-2-02. : 6:09 pm] Nekron -- nothing I could do will ever be considered a meaningful gameplay change by you[2019-2-02. : 6:08 pm] NudeRaider -- NekronNekron shouted: because I think that you could go far beyond whatever shitty tug of war you can do with triggers if you had an AI that builds outposts and intelligently uses casters or custom units also sure, go far beyond. That is exactly what I'm wondering you people don't do. Instead you hide your capabilities [2019-2-02. : 6:07 pm] NudeRaider -- several tows actually use some form of mineral mining btw. but its considered extra[2019-2-02. : 6:06 pm] Nekron -- yeah I guess it's my bad, you don't need doesn't equal you can't use[2019-2-02. : 6:04 pm] NudeRaider -- I said you don't need it. And that you need some other form of income[2019-2-02. : 6:04 pm] Nekron -- because I think that you could go far beyond whatever shitty tug of war you can do with triggers if you had an AI that builds outposts and intelligently uses casters or custom units[2019-2-02. : 6:04 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Voyager7456 no, not you, but pretty much everyone else alright, carry on then [2019-2-02. : 6:03 pm] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: NudeRaider Are you talking to me? no, not you, but pretty much everyone else [2019-2-02. : 6:03 pm] Nekron -- so you don't think a tug of war could be made with a base building AI that mines minerals?[2019-2-02. : 6:02 pm] NudeRaider -- NekronNekron shouted: "mods can't add or change much game play" WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? HOW DOES THE CONTEXT HELP THIS? it means when I want to make a tug of war, I don't need base building or mining minerals. I need a different income I also need computer controlled units. It's literally a different game.[2019-2-02. : 6:02 pm] Nekron -- Dem0nDem0n shouted: Nude's clearly never played FungusCraft so he doesn't understand the majesty and unlimited potential of mods. prolly[2019-2-02. : 6:01 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: i love how you people constantly assume what i have done, said, meant, played and think. And constantly tell me to not be assumptuous. Are you talking to me?[2019-2-02. : 6:01 pm] Nekron -- even just mapping changes could go an insanely long way in making the gameplay of SC campaign's better[2019-2-02. : 6:00 pm] NudeRaider -- i love how you people constantly assume what i have done, said, meant, played and think. And constantly tell me to not be assumptuous.[2019-2-02. : 6:00 pm] Voyager7456 -- NekronNekron shouted: but RTS doesn't make it so that whatever you do doesn't change the core gameplay this, I think is the key point[2019-2-02. : 6:00 pm] Nekron -- the core gameplay of Blizzard campaigns is absolute shit, a painfully easy slog with no variation[2019-2-02. : 6:00 pm] Nekron -- but RTS doesn't make it so that whatever you do doesn't change the core gameplay[2019-2-02. : 5:59 pm] Dem0n -- Nude's clearly never played FungusCraft so he doesn't understand the majesty and unlimited potential of mods.[2019-2-02. : 5:58 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Nekron a campaign implies rts. And I agree these are all the tools you need to create a good campaign. I even mentioned one in the beginning. I am specifically talking about when you want to change genre, or mix up game play. But apparently " modders don't want that", is the (to me) surprising answer. You keep saying modders don't want to mix up gameplay, and I think that's absolutely false. The starting point of every mod I make is "what new systems can I add to this?"[2019-2-02. : 5:56 pm] NudeRaider -- NekronNekron shouted: NudeRaider Also what does this mean? Do I have to go beyond graphics, tech, and ability changes to make a good campaign, or to offer anything in the game play departament? You literally haven't progressed a single step forward from when I pointed out that every point you say might very well be applied to maps or really any type of content a campaign implies rts. And I agree these are all the tools you need to create a good campaign. I even mentioned one in the beginning. I am specifically talking about when you want to change genre, or mix up game play. But apparently " modders don't want that", is the (to me) surprising answer.[2019-2-02. : 5:53 pm] NudeRaider -- NekronNekron shouted: Imagine someone unironically saying "This makes me wonder; Why do all the other mapmakers stick to terraining, unit and trigger changes? Why does nobody go beyond? And don't tell me because modding is much easier and capable in that regard, because that would obviously be blasphemy 8=====D" that last part was obbiously ironic. If the first part is actually true - that they don't explore all possibilities, i would just accept that as a neutral statement. but ya, that me. I'm very pragmatic.[2019-2-02. : 5:53 pm] Nekron -- "mods can't add or change much game play" WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? HOW DOES THE CONTEXT HELP THIS?[2019-2-02. : 5:51 pm] Nekron -- Imagine someone unironically saying "This makes me wonder; Why do all the other mapmakers stick to terraining, unit and trigger changes? Why does nobody go beyond? And don't tell me because modding is much easier and capable in that regard, because that would obviously be blasphemy 8=====D"[2019-2-02. : 5:50 pm] NudeRaider -- NekronNekron shouted: NudeRaider NudeRaider NudeRaider oh. lol. Well you'd need the context of my other shouts, and you'd see what I meant is that mods can't add (or change) much game play, not that sc has no game play to begin with. That would also be a stupid notion. lol - also I enjoy RTS vs ai a lot. I also enjoy RTS vs. players but not enough to keep me for so many years. And please keep in mind that this is a personal preference, and by no means judgemental of the genre itself.[2019-2-02. : 5:49 pm] Nekron -- Maps can be dope and mods can be dope but the arguments you're making boil down to being stupid generalisations about the nature of SC content based on few select set pieces you derived your entire view from, you bring nothing new to the table every time this discussion dares to ever so slightly peek from around the corner[2019-2-02. : 5:49 pm] Voyager7456 -- But I think people primarily get into modding because they're interested in making new RTS mechanics, and then they continue to pursue that[2019-2-02. : 5:49 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Voyager7456 That is what I can't wrap my head around. People are different. Some like RTS. Some like challenges, some are curious, some are artsy, etc. But why should ALL modders uniformely agree that when modding sc you should (or more like dogmatically must) stick to RTS. I would've expected more diversity. I don't think they have, as I said there's a couple of LA's mods, a few arena mods, I have prototypes for some weird stuff like a Raccoon City-style mod and a LU-esque mod.[2019-2-02. : 5:46 pm] Nekron -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: This makes me wonder: Why do all the other modders stick to graphics, tech and ability changes? Why does nobody go beyond? And don't tell me because mapping is much easier and capable in that regard, because that would obviously be blasphemy Also what does this mean? Do I have to go beyond graphics, tech, and ability changes to make a good campaign, or to offer anything in the game play departament? You literally haven't progressed a single step forward from when I pointed out that every point you say might very well be applied to maps or really any type of content[2019-2-02. : 5:45 pm] Nekron -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Nekron please quote where you think I implied that. I meant nothing even close to that. NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Not sure if we have to judge it by that, but I postulated that mods cannot offer much in the game play department. That mapping is the way to go if you want different game play. Modders didn't agree, arguing ensued. NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: tbh it wasn't the melee that kept me on bnet for years. It was the endless possibilites of UMS. I'm sure it's like that for many people. Especially here on SEN. [2019-2-02. : 5:44 pm] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: It's not a question of what the tools *can* achieve, it's a question of what creators *want* to achieve That is what I can't wrap my head around. People are different. Some like RTS. Some like challenges, some are curious, some are artsy, etc. But why should ALL modders uniformely agree that when modding sc you should (or more like dogmatically must) stick to RTS. I would've expected more diversity.[2019-2-02. : 5:43 pm] Nekron -- Dem0nDem0n shouted: talking shit about his stupid stance, not his content imo you literally made a reference to your presumed quality of his content LMAO Dem0nDem0n shouted: bunch of modders here thinking they're hot shit for replacing a .grp file when they can't even use simple triggers LMAO [2019-2-02. : 5:39 pm] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: NudeRaider NudeRaider There are other modders that "go beyond" - it's reductive to say every other mod just changes abilities and weapons. okay sorry when that was offensive. As demonstrated here I am totally fine with modding that sticks to RTS MooseMoose shouted: So I'll go ahead and ask: What's wrong with using modding to make a better RTS anyway? NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: nothing? . But you need to understand my background as an UMS mapper. For me it's a challenge to take the RTS Starcraft and mold it into something different. That doesn't mean it's better by default. But I have the utmost respect for modders. I'm amazed of their works. It's just a foreign idea for me to not see what else could be done.[2019-2-02. : 5:35 pm]  Moose -- These days, it's more a barrier of entry to playing with pubs, not really ya bros.[2019-2-02. : 5:35 pm] Excalibur -- I cant say I enjoyed any of the non-RTS mods I've played. I remember we had a couple Arena-like ones IIRC.[2019-2-02. : 5:35 pm] Voyager7456 -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: I think its interesting to think about what would have happened if SCMLoader had become like a de-facto tool everyone uses like some other game communities have. Kind of like the 'Unofficial' patches or script extenders for Bethesda games that anyone who plays on PC uses. Or what would have happened if EUDEnabler had gotten mass adoption here, like it did in Korea[2019-2-02. : 5:34 pm] Voyager7456 -- ExcaliburExcalibur shouted: @Voy Mods downside has always been the barrier to entry in terms of how easy you can play them with the general SC playing populace. Stuff like SCMLoader was cool because you could contain most of your stuff in a map file, albeit making it much larger, but still needed SCMLoader ran by all parties for it to work. While I'd say the barriers to entry are overstated, I don't think that really has an impact on the question of "why don't people make non-RTS mods"[2019-2-02. : 5:34 pm] Excalibur -- I think its interesting to think about what would have happened if SCMLoader had become like a de-facto tool everyone uses like some other game communities have. Kind of like the 'Unofficial' patches or script extenders for Bethesda games that anyone who plays on PC uses.[2019-2-02. : 5:33 pm] Voyager7456 -- It's not a question of what the tools *can* achieve, it's a question of what creators *want* to achieve[2019-2-02. : 5:33 pm] Excalibur -- @Voy Mods downside has always been the barrier to entry in terms of how easy you can play them with the general SC playing populace. Stuff like SCMLoader was cool because you could contain most of your stuff in a map file, albeit making it much larger, but still needed SCMLoader ran by all parties for it to work.[2019-2-02. : 5:32 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Not sure if we have to judge it by that, but I postulated that mods cannot offer much in the game play department. That mapping is the way to go if you want different game play. Modders didn't agree, arguing ensued. I don't agree because everything mapping can do is contained within the superset of what modding can do. You can inject as much custom C++ as you want, it's certainly not a question of capability LMAO[2019-2-02. : 5:31 pm] Dem0n -- NekronNekron shouted: LMAO Dem0n talking shit about UEDCommander meanwhile he has like 1/5th the content made under his belt so what?[2019-2-02. : 5:30 pm] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: So, I've tried most mods on the Voys lists and I learned something: Lord Agammemnon is a very special modder. Of all of the creators he's the only that used mods for something beyond putting icing on the RTS cake. NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: This makes me wonder: Why do all the other modders stick to graphics, tech and ability changes? Why does nobody go beyond? And don't tell me because mapping is much easier and capable in that regard, because that would obviously be blasphemy There are other modders that "go beyond" - it's reductive to say every other mod just changes abilities and weapons. |
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