Based on what I've seen on Skype and in the TS2 development forum, Jack isn't the one who is actively managing balance for the map. Just throwing that out there. I can't speak for the other members of the team in terms of fan feedback, but I just wanted to make that clear going forward.

EDIT:
That's not to say he isn't part of the dialogue, by the way, since it is a group effort ultimately. It just seems like most of the balancing changes are decided by others.

I always thought ts2 was Jack's design concept, with him heading it, unholy being tacked on so ts2 can say it something to do with the original, and ahli and luzz doing 90% of all the actual work.

So who's the last say on things with this?

@Azrael

I agree with everything you said, I am glad I am not the only one who see's the flippant and blatant disrespectful attitude going on with the development. No problem for the support, I just feel you were unjustly brushed to the side for no apparent reason.


Well DevLIn I think you guys might need a new face, or "PR man" because honestly I do not think jack listens at all, and he has a hostile attitude towards the community as a whole. This is far cry from TS1 Era where the boards were aflame with trash talk and borderline trolls, this treatment is not deserved (remember pages of posts would be deleted because of all the trash talk and flame?). Furthermore, I am getting differing vibes from the developers on where this project is going, which means I think there is a glaring lack of communication among the developing staff.





I really perceived the same thing CAFG stated. If this is not true, I think the bonds of communication need to be strengthened. +1 for honesty here.

Jack:

The whole problem with this concept is you don't seem to realize that the Heroes themselves created the balance. This occurred through the variation in a well defined hero pool, and it is also the reason why 5v5 does not work unless you "simplify" towards a Dota style. TS was incredibly deep, rather a quality over quantity game, and your decisions for balance don't seem justified. It feels like the actual skill in the game has been trashed. Coming from a TS vet, as well as a top Summoner player: He was not OP, you simply needed to actually think before you played and not blindly do what you think is right or 'fun'. The pacing in TS1 could be compared to a game of chess, there were phases and moments in the game where you needed to play out the right moves and was not who has the most 'raw power'. Now it feels like you pick your heroes, try to fast cap to get those sims, and just upgrade damage to outburst the enemy.

The loading screen shows who the team is and who basically does what. For the most part, though, I see LoveLess and UU giving most of the suggestions that are then implemented by Ahli and Luzz. Again, Jack adds his two cents as well, but his participation has been sporadic as he's been busy with other things. At the beginning Jack was the one pushing for a TS2 map on SC2, but after Ahli started actually getting the ball rolling others got more involved. Jack also took his random breaks from SEN and SC2, so that added to other people taking the reigns as well.

A "new face" implies that Jack is the existing face. He does manage the TS website and was trying hard to promote the community as a whole, but in terms of this project I'd say there is no one specific "face". Maybe that's something we need, I suppose, but for the most part all the developers usually discuss things in this thread. Recently he has been the most vocal, but in the past the other developers chimed in a lot more as well. There is no lack of communication whatsoever. Everyone on the team is on Skype daily or posting in the TS2 forum on here, constantly talking about changes and progress. As I said above, UU and LoveLess make most of the calls: from my perspective UU mainly talks about changes in comparison to TS1 and LoveLess has fixes mainly about new heroes or comparisons between TS2 and other games in the MOBA/AoS genre. The team is actually pretty functional and works hard to put everything together.

I think one thing to consider is that the map is still very much in a beta phase so obviously balance issues and bugs will arise. They're trying to juggle fixing existing heroes while still converting old ones to the new map/format. In that sense, it may seem like chaotic miscommunication, but really they're trying to get as much done as they can given time constraints and whatnot.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 22 2013, 8:21 am by DevliN.

I would just like to say I typically agree with Loveless on all balance ideas.

As much as I hate to say it, Lovel did have some valid reasons for any changes that he implemented. I do like the summoner leash being a buff while inside instead if a debuff, and if the leash is extended slightly then the complaints about it would mostly disappear.

@CAFG, Devlin, Bankai and Sacrieur
Please do not imply any stances or leads inside the team. If anything, Ahli and Luzz are the leads, as they are the ones actually doing the work. The rest of us can't do much but make suggestions, play with you guys and take feedback, and literally argue with each other.
If you are truly curious, you can PM each one of us and get our stance on things, but please don't bring it up here.

@Multitude of Changes/Community Suggestions..
Due to recent Heart of the Swarm Patches f'ing up tons of things, and recent failures and, of course, life in general, productivity has been waning. Of course, the team's productivity behaves sporadically, but I'm sure as hell we won't give up on it completely. What I'm trying to say is, there're a lot of changes we want to do and try out, but it may come out later, rather than sooner. And, a lot of things you guys talked about have been in our perpetual to-do list a long time ago. We still very much appreciate your input, but I would ask you to be patient <3

Another thing is that if we make big changes, we won't be making them all in one update. As Loveless pointed out, if we make big changes in different heroes, we won't be able to purely test the differences. In other words, things will be slow, so bare with us.

Currently, Luzz and Ahli are working to correct all the bugs HotS brought.. (and also finishing the HotS campaign <_<) plus fixing the huge imbalances such as Mech and Assassin's L4.
If you have any suggestions to these spells, that would be great. It may still be implement-able before the next update (which is coming soon, I promise!)

@Summoner
The whole thing stems from the feeling that new abilities are implemented haphazardly. If this is the core problem, then I admit I have to agree. We have not rigorously tested other possibilities with Summoner.
However, I have to hold back the thought that the current abilities of the Summoner are entirely broken, because they aren't. I see potential in them, but I suspect it requires tweaking.

---

All in all, don't hate on us b/c of imbalances. We do take your comments into consideration, although we may be defensive about it.
It's incredible to see that you feel so strongly about TS1 and TS2, so I'm glad. But, of course, we are passionate about it too, so things can get out of hand.

I would much rather have a nice discussion about different aspects of the game, and what else can be improved.
With Summoner, I think Azreal and bankai have gotten their point through succinctly.
What I want to know is what about Mech, and Assassin's L4. We know it's OP, so we're doing something to it. But what ideas do you have?
What about the Special Upgrades? What sort of things would you like to see?
Also, if you're not sure of certain limitations (Yes, SC2's editor DOES HAVE limitations... don't listen to dustin's propaganda), please ask.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 22 2013, 7:28 pm by UnholyUrine.

As others have pointed out, Temple Siege 2 is a team effort. I'm not the lead of the group, and if anything I'm one of the smaller wheels when it comes to implementing things. I'm not going to respond to Azrael anymore because I feel that his argumentation has stopped being objective and is now personal. With that in mind, and as a throwback to TS1: 1v1 me Bo3 GOGO? xD

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 23 2013, 12:41 am by Roy. Reason: Removed last part

I never intended to make any such impression if I had o:

The latest version's patch notes mention that "missiles can now hit units being moved". May I inquire how you implemented that fix so I can do so as well in my own map?

Luzz implemented an array that tracks the projectiles and whenever you move a unit, you need to redirect all missiles in that array pointing to that unit. That's how he solved it as far as I know.

I'm not sure I understand. This fixes the problem completely while allowing mappers to keep their spells designed as they were? Could you link me to anything that'd explain his method?

Also, I have -just- played a game and troll guy named "OCDTs" or something like that is using a glitch: the Medic unit somehow stuns unit permanently: it shows a sad face over the unit, and as it is there, and even after it disappears, the unit remains immobile until he dies.
Fix quickly before it gets abused too much?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 25 2013, 5:42 pm by payne.

We're aware of that bug.

Payne

Variable, 100 in X, 2 in Y, Unit. Variable, 100, effect. Launch effect plays, save missile and target into the Unit variable, use 0 for missile, 1 for target. Save the launch effect into the second variable, make sure the numbers in The variables are the same. If damaging effect is null (Unit either died or was moved) play from variable 2 on the target in variable 1 from the missiles owner in variable 1. Problem Solved.

^ I hope this helps. I found a way to get the target of the unit at launch and save that unit to the missile that was created to damage the target. I can give that to you as we'll, but I am not at my computer currently.

Also, this system is limited. It assumes that there won't be more than 100 missiles on the map at any given moment.

Hmm, if my missile doesn't deal any damage, but instead only moves the target unit via triggers, would this work as well?

Also, another bug found: the Reaper getting stunned while in mid-air (jumping, I assume) will get stuck at its height level (but still be able to move).

This system will make the missile hit the target unit no matter what. I made my system check if the target was null when the impact effect occured (That is another problem with this, you have to manually input each launch and impact effect, lots of maintenance). If the target was null I made sure that he wasn't dead by checking the variables and seeing if the target was "No unit." If everything checked out, I executed the stored effect on the stored target unit from the player's hero.

If your trigger is executed by a data effect playing then it could work. I also suppose you could store a trigger to run instead of an effect as well if you really wanted to.

I should probably make a thread explaining how I did it and stop posting in here.. sorry.

~ luzz

I find it funny that the only person in this thread right now that knows what he's talking about is completely ignored. His post was so spot on and said in a courteous manner. There is no one else I with which I can agree more than Fashioned, and he is extremely credible. When he says this game trashed, it probably means it's trashed.

I feel like the contributors, excluding Luzzotica (who would have gladly made the map as similar to the original as possible but was pressured by this community to create garbage), have done something completely inappropriate. Despite my countless efforts pressing for a game that was as close to the original as possible, they were shunned because "this is SC2 and there's a new editor, and we have more power to create flashy spells". I eventually gave up. People didn't play TS because it was flashy, people played because of how naturally deep the game was. Fine tuning was needed, but it still was an instant hit from the get go.

When I play the game, it feels so imbalanced, everything about it feels unnatural: the speed of play, the cooldowns on spells and various things (ASSIMILATORS ROFL).
Please be honest with yourself and take what we have to say to heart.

The least this community can do is agree to create a new version emphasizing everything based in TS.

There are only a few things I need to point out.

First of all, if you dislike 5v5, then set up 3v3 games.. It's really that simple.
I, and everyone in the team, have seen and experienced how 5v5 teamfights is also really fun, perhaps not in the same manner as the original TS.

Second, I know I personally don't ignore people's comments. I may not read them because I'm busy, but if you bring it up, I will read it. I appreciate all comments, and this is an attitude that the team holds. Do not ever imply that we ignore yours or anyone's comments. If you read the first few pages of this thread, you will see me discussing team sizes. We already saved up and watched the replays of you playing the game after you've given us a review on SC2. Blood, luzz and I have also discussed it in length.

I am sorry if things feel imbalanced and not what it was like. But I feel like you haven't really given the game a chance.
Finally, constructive criticism will help a lot more than saying "LOL ASSIM". I am flattered that Fashioned would think that TS1 has the level of complexity like Chess, but it is a vague analogy, as the game's core mechanics is nothing like that. Thus, we can't take anything from it.
Even "unnatural" doesn't hold water because sc2 is so different from sc1... What are we supposed to make from this?

It's really not that simple when the game isn't balanced... The hero selection is different and completely unfamiliar from TS.
5v5 teamfights are not exciting, they are just who can dps the most.

You may have read his comment, but you never addressed it. That's being fucking ignored.

So?


They don't "feel" imbalanced, they "are" imbalanced. I did give this game a chance, throughout it's entire production. Without Luzz you'd have nothing.


I know it must be tough for people who aren't highly knowledgeable players to be criticized about this game, but he's right, and it's not a vague analogy.
Honestly who knows better? The players who have spentless countless hours playing TS, or the mappers who sit back and don't really have any true knowledge about the mechanics of the game. You NEED players to call out bullshit, and to reject imbalance, instead of saying everything is ok and circle jerking out of false happiness. Players know best, not mappers, and this has been the case for many other maps on SC2, including Desert Strike.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 2 2013, 2:48 am by NinjaOtis.