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[2021-8-31. : 6:27 am] Luigi -- As a last note: while peer reviewed papers are ideal to use as scientific source, the rest of papers from scientific journals can still be a reliable source, since journals require an approved review before publishing. As for meta-analysis papers, their strength is the number of reviewed papers. Such studies focus on relevant papers to the subject, but not always are exhaustive enough to review the quality of said papers, which is a weakness. Nevertheless I would recommend these to avoid 'cherry picking'.[2021-8-31. : 5:53 am]  Lanthanide -- but the drug companies are working on updated vaccines and boosters specifically to target more evolved strains of SARS-COV-2[2021-8-31. : 5:53 am] Lanthanide -- although more recent research suggests they're not as effective against delta, and in particular they don't seem to prevent transmission or initial infection of delta as much as they did with alpha and prior strains, including the original 'wild' COVDI-19[2021-8-31. : 5:52 am] Lanthanide -- in contrast, multiple studies have proven the vaccines are effective at preventing severe illness and death[2021-8-31. : 5:48 am] Luigi -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: Wing Zero Vrael my shelf is stocked with HCQ (prescribed by a doctor for humans), Zinc, Vitamin D and Vitamin C, although the human formulations of Ivermectin are completely safe, people get sick because they ignorantly take livestock formulation Ivermectin is for treatment, not for prevention. Vaccines are for prevention and you need them either way. Hydroxychloroquine has not been proven effective against COVID.[2021-8-31. : 4:53 am]  jjf28 -- hmm, maybe, if you're getting a drowning sensation/extreme trouble breathing for an extended period of time that sounds PTSD worthy[2021-8-31. : 4:51 am]  O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- (unless psychological/neurological issues can be side-effects of covid, but that would be more of a trigger than an actual cause)[2021-8-31. : 4:43 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- he didn't die and so far doesn't seem to have lasting effects thankfully, but it's hard to say what, if any, long-term effects might creep up[2021-8-31. : 4:38 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- my brother is very health and fitness-conscious and has no pre-existing conditions, and he had it super bad and basically the only reason he didn't get put in the hospital was because there wasn't room[2021-8-31. : 4:31 am] Lanthanide -- also if it was true that only obese people were at risk from COVID for serious illness and death, then that is what all the experts would be saying and the media would be repeating[2021-8-31. : 4:29 am] Lanthanide -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: jjf28 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.supplementary-material Pfizer's 6 month safety and efficacy trial. They report in one place what percentage of study participants were obese, but it's not a part of the comorbidities index. There was only 1 participant who died of COVID in the vaccinated group and only 2 participants who died of COVID in the unvaccinated group. They didn't report comorbidities for either these or for people who fell seriously ill with COVID. That's important data to me, if only obese people or people with respiratory issues or other serious health issues fall seriously ill or die, then the vaccine isn't of benefit to me. No one has shown me a study proving the COVID vaccines are efficacious at reducing transmissibility. I'm not interested in trials that hint at effectiveness. I've seen the opposite btw, Fauci talking about people with breakthrough infections have the same " if only obese people or people with respiratory issues or other serious health issues fall seriously ill or die" Well we already know that is not the case just from what has happened in hospitals. we don't need a formal study as evdience that people who are not obese die or become seriously ill from COVID. studies are slow and take a long time to do properly, and if you're specifically relying on studies from Pfizer about their vaccine efficacy and they have only published old studies long ago to address the particular thing they are interested in, then you're basically ignoring a huge amount of information for no reason[2021-8-31. : 4:24 am] Vrael -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: anything we have is introduced, and no one would introduce crocodiles anywhere deliberately, I don't think no, no one would do such a thing  [2021-8-31. : 4:22 am] jjf28 -- also adding context to the fauci reference, he's discussing differences in variants: "But what we've learned that's new, John, in answer to your question is that when you look at the level of virus in the nasopharynx of people who are vaccinated, who get breakthrough infections, it's really quite high and equivalent to the level of virus in the nasopharynx of unvaccinated people who get infected. That's very different from the Alpha variant. The Alpha variant the level of virus in a vaccinated person was extremely low compared in the-- in the vaccinated people compared to the unvaccinated people. Not so with Delta."[2021-8-31. : 4:21 am] Lanthanide -- anything we have is introduced, and no one would introduce crocodiles anywhere deliberately, I don't think[2021-8-31. : 4:21 am] Lanthanide -- VraelVrael shouted: I know gators are just florida and somewhere in china I think? just assume NZ doesn't have any mammals or reptiles and you'll generally be correct[2021-8-31. : 4:12 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- VraelVrael shouted: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/maps/crocodilian-ranges/ it says southernmost fossil evidence is there, which just means that they are hiding them[2021-8-31. : 4:07 am] Vrael -- bleh, guess you kiwi's can just go and film another LOTR movie or something then[2021-8-31. : 4:06 am] Voyager7456 -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: I can sympathize, but similarly I'm sure you can see why I wouldn't want to play the 1vAll hostile discussion I don't want your empty sympathy - I want people like you to stop prolonging this shit before I lose any more people I care about[2021-8-31. : 4:06 am] jjf28 -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: amount of virus in their nasal passages as unvaccinated people. Part of the reason they're recommending masks for everybody. Anyway, like I said at the end of the topic, I don't want to argue this anymore. It's obvious I'm not going to convince you all and you're not going to convince me. I shouldn't have taken the initial bait, just hard not to respond to stuff about horse dewormer and whatnot. Annoying since it's used in humans just as much as livestock, just at much smaller dosages. if you don't want to play don't play, personally I'm long past the illusion I'll convince my interlocutor in an argument, but I won't let potentially dangerous statements stand unchallenged for other visitors to read & start leaning towards or gain confidence in the wrong position (moreover I could be wrong and I could learn something to refine my own position)[2021-8-31. : 4:00 am] Vrael -- LanthanideLanthanide shouted: we're not letting filthy foreigners in right now, sorry yeah but how u gonna stop my submarine which is disguised as a crocodile[2021-8-31. : 3:59 am] Vrael -- yeah but there are only like 200 people in your whole country so does it really count[2021-8-31. : 3:59 am] jjf28 -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: jjf28 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.supplementary-material Pfizer's 6 month safety and efficacy trial. They report in one place what percentage of study participants were obese, but it's not a part of the comorbidities index. There was only 1 participant who died of COVID in the vaccinated group and only 2 participants who died of COVID in the unvaccinated group. They didn't report comorbidities for either these or for people who fell seriously ill with COVID. That's important data to me, if only obese people or people with respiratory issues or other serious health issues fall seriously ill or die, then the vaccine isn't of benefit to me. No one has shown me a study proving the COVID vaccines are efficacious at reducing transmissibility. I'm not interested in trials that hint at effectiveness. I've seen the opposite btw, Fauci talking about people with breakthrough infections have the same ok that's fair, if your original statement UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: Voyager7456 especially not with a vaccine that doesn't prevent spreading the infection was purely about transmissibility I wouldn't have bothered responding (there's weak evidence here and there, not worth discussing), but your statement was about "preventing spread" Ultraviolet if I get sick at least I'll know I'm sick and stay away from othersUltraviolet shouted: amount of virus in their nasal passages as unvaccinated people. Part of the reason they're recommending masks for everybody. Anyway, like I said at the end of the topic, I don't want to argue this anymore. It's obvious I'm not going to convince you all and you're not going to convince me. I shouldn't have taken the initial bait, just hard not to respond to stuff about horse dewormer and whatnot. Annoying since it's used in humans just as much as livestock, just at much smaller dosages. [2021-8-31. : 3:58 am] Lanthanide -- NZ numbers have the advantage of being relatively 'clean' in terms of data gathering, we have good records of how many people got COVID and who gave it to whom, how and when[2021-8-31. : 3:57 am] Vrael -- bet you guys are like finland anyway and don't even socially interact in the first place, course you dont spread disease[2021-8-31. : 3:56 am] Vrael -- dude get your stinky kiwi numbers outta here this is a discussion for Murica OK?[2021-8-31. : 3:54 am] Lanthanide -- so the mortality risk of vaccine vs COVID is quite clear (and the complication the woman developed from the vaccine, is a known complication from COVID that occurs far more frequently)[2021-8-31. : 3:54 am] Lanthanide -- 3 million+ doses of the vaccine have been given, and we've only had something like 2,300 cases of COVID[2021-8-31. : 3:53 am] Lanthanide -- we've had 1 person in NZ die as a result of the pfizer vaccine, although this person also had co-morbidities and its with the coroner for further review[2021-8-31. : 3:52 am] Lanthanide -- ya, much easier just to give into the group mind and get vaccinated, like an upstanding member of society willing to do your duty for the good of society as a whole[2021-8-31. : 3:48 am] Ultraviolet -- I can sympathize, but similarly I'm sure you can see why I wouldn't want to play the 1vAll hostile discussion[2021-8-31. : 3:46 am] Roy -- It's hardly a surprise that people get hostile on a topic that has likely dramatically impacted them in some way.[2021-8-31. : 3:42 am] Ultraviolet -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: y'all horse paste swilling buffoons want to take your own chances, fine, but don't go changing your mind when it takes a turn for the worse like this, not worth responding to this kinda shit[2021-8-31. : 3:41 am] Ultraviolet -- RoyRoy shouted: I'm mostly curious why you believe you are so strong that Covid poses no threat to you, but you're simultaneously so weak that a vaccine will destroy you. I would discuss it in private with you if you are genuinely curious and not just trying to shame me/convince me that I'm wrong. It's just not much benefit or reward to me responding to a group of people all trying to berate me into believing what they believe[2021-8-31. : 3:38 am] Voyager7456 -- y'all horse paste swilling buffoons want to take your own chances, fine, but don't go changing your mind when it takes a turn for the worse[2021-8-31. : 3:36 am] Voyager7456 -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: Voyager7456 especially not with a vaccine that doesn't prevent spreading the infection as long as you promise not to waste valuable hospital resources if you do get sick if I get sick at least I'll know I'm sick and stay away from others[2021-8-31. : 3:34 am] Roy -- But I'm not going to post in the topic since you don't seem interested in discussing it anymore.[2021-8-31. : 3:33 am] Roy -- I'm mostly curious why you believe you are so strong that Covid poses no threat to you, but you're simultaneously so weak that a vaccine will destroy you.[2021-8-31. : 3:32 am] Ultraviolet -- amount of virus in their nasal passages as unvaccinated people. Part of the reason they're recommending masks for everybody. Anyway, like I said at the end of the topic, I don't want to argue this anymore. It's obvious I'm not going to convince you all and you're not going to convince me. I shouldn't have taken the initial bait, just hard not to respond to stuff about horse dewormer and whatnot. Annoying since it's used in humans just as much as livestock, just at much smaller dosages.[2021-8-31. : 3:28 am] Ultraviolet -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Ultraviolet I can't really take your word on mortality benefit since you lean so heavily on AFD, you'll have to be specific about which study/which figures you get that from, some of the trials data I'm looking at shows the opposite: 4 deaths in placebo, 2 in vaccine (none definitively connected to vaccine or placebo), but regardless, comparing vaccine vs placebo deaths is definitely incomplete in a way that you can't resolve in a generalized manner - you need to factor in the mortality of covid, your own chances of getting it with or without the vaccine, and the chances you'll have spread it before you're over it https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577?query=recirc_curatedRelated_article https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.supplementary-material Pfizer's 6 month safety and efficacy trial. They report in one place what percentage of study participants were obese, but it's not a part of the comorbidities index. There was only 1 participant who died of COVID in the vaccinated group and only 2 participants who died of COVID in the unvaccinated group. They didn't report comorbidities for either these or for people who fell seriously ill with COVID. That's important data to me, if only obese people or people with respiratory issues or other serious health issues fall seriously ill or die, then the vaccine isn't of benefit to me. No one has shown me a study proving the COVID vaccines are efficacious at reducing transmissibility. I'm not interested in trials that hint at effectiveness. I've seen the opposite btw, Fauci talking about people with breakthrough infections have the same[2021-8-31. : 3:01 am] lil-Inferno -- doesn't matter how much you exercise, or how healthy you eat, nobody is immune to a disease they don't have the antibodies for[2021-8-31. : 3:00 am] lil-Inferno -- not sure why you think hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin are straight bussin' as treatments for covid just cuz some rando doctor (who is probably not your doctors and is just one outlier among many who advise against such things) said so but then don't trust (w/e I don't know your actual reasons) a vaccine that billions have received already and that governments worldwide have approved[2021-8-31. : 2:54 am] lil-Inferno -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: Wing Zero Vrael my shelf is stocked with HCQ (prescribed by a doctor for humans), Zinc, Vitamin D and Vitamin C, although the human formulations of Ivermectin are completely safe, people get sick because they ignorantly take livestock formulation but was it prescribed by your doctor for you 🤔[2021-8-31. : 2:38 am] Vrael -- I'd say "read and draw your own conclusions" but everyone should get the vaccine to help protect everyone else[2021-8-31. : 2:33 am] Vrael -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: Wing Zero Vrael my shelf is stocked with HCQ (prescribed by a doctor for humans), Zinc, Vitamin D and Vitamin C, although the human formulations of Ivermectin are completely safe, people get sick because they ignorantly take livestock formulation https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/antiviral-therapy/chloroquine-or-hydroxychloroquine-and-or-azithromycin/[2021-8-31. : 1:23 am] jjf28 -- before you're over it or before you realize you have it*, not a negligible incubation period...[2021-8-31. : 1:14 am] jjf28 -- UltravioletUltraviolet shouted: jjf28 Debatable, the vaccine efficacy trials didn't study transmissibility. I read through Pfizer's trials and they were a piss poor example of a study. Didn't even include obesity as a comorbidity factor. And didn't show any mortality benefit (more people actually died in the vaccine group than the placebo group) I can't really take your word on mortality benefit since you lean so heavily on AFD, you'll have to be specific about which study/which figures you get that from, some of the trials data I'm looking at shows the opposite: 4 deaths in placebo, 2 in vaccine (none definitively connected to vaccine or placebo), but regardless, comparing vaccine vs placebo deaths is definitely incomplete in a way that you can't resolve in a generalized manner - you need to factor in the mortality of covid, your own chances of getting it with or without the vaccine, and the chances you'll have spread it before you're over it https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577?query=recirc_curatedRelated_article |