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[2018-10-26. : 5:42 am]  NudeRaider -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: quantum indeterminacy is potentially a strong argument against someone pushing a sort of flat determinism, but it's not an argument for free will, more an argument for some RNG in the system (or an argument that "neither side knows and either could be true"); adding RNG doesn't get us to free will without hidden assumptions; what does get us closer is https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/ ya, I was wording that badly at first. It's not proof but it is what makes it plausible/possible. (Hence the rephrase NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: NudeRaider actually, let me reword that. Quantum mechanics makes the - what I feel is the - much more natural explanation possible )[2018-10-26. : 5:38 am] NudeRaider -- unless you're serious and that's supposed to be your justiification to dismiss randomness altogether. Like it wouldn't exist at all? Then I'm afraid I'm just gonna have to withdraw.[2018-10-26. : 5:37 am] NudeRaider -- I mean, after all we're debating "deterministic vs. random" which are defined with these facts in mind.[2018-10-26. : 5:36 am] NudeRaider -- "just because" lets stick to what seems rational and what is accepted truth, okay?[2018-10-26. : 5:35 am] NudeRaider -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: then you get in to like random quantum events or w/e, but maybe those aren't random at all either and we just haven't figured out their pattern 🤷 lets not get into philosophical territory where you question everyhting[2018-10-26. : 5:32 am] NudeRaider -- but let me say "name a tool, color animal, or something like that is a bad example to prove randomness of thought. It's a psychology thing that we tend to name something that is quite common to us.[2018-10-26. : 5:30 am] NudeRaider -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Nude free will doesnt exist and quantum mechanics doesnt save you I'm excited to hear why.[2018-10-26. : 4:58 am]  O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: is it a thing in philosophy to push feminine pronouns? or was that author just aggressively using them? militant feminism?[2018-10-26. : 4:17 am] jjf28 -- is it a thing in philosophy to push feminine pronouns? or was that author just aggressively using them?[2018-10-26. : 4:03 am] jjf28 -- quantum indeterminacy is potentially a strong argument against someone pushing a sort of flat determinism, but it's not an argument for free will, more an argument for some RNG in the system (or an argument that "neither side knows and either could be true"); adding RNG doesn't get us to free will without hidden assumptions; what does get us closer is https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/[2018-10-26. : 3:32 am]  Oh_Man -- To prove my point type an animal into chat. The "choice" is yours...[2018-10-25. : 10:09 pm] Moose -- Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: this is my new favorite u wholesome Pr0nogo  [2018-10-25. : 4:58 pm] Wing Zero -- VraelVrael shouted: not " eight hundred and fifty five sextillion nine hundred and forty three quintillion six hundred and fifty five quadrillion three hundred and ninety six trillion seven hundred and twenty nine billion six hundred and thirty eight million two hundred and fifty one thousand nine hundred and two." I would stop after 3 words.[2018-10-25. : 1:46 pm] Vrael -- not " eight hundred and fifty five sextillion nine hundred and forty three quintillion six hundred and fifty five quadrillion three hundred and ninety six trillion seven hundred and twenty nine billion six hundred and thirty eight million two hundred and fifty one thousand nine hundred and two."[2018-10-25. : 1:42 pm] Vrael -- humans, when asked to generate a random number, also will not generate numbers above some maximum limit typically[2018-10-25. : 6:48 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- then you get in to like random quantum events or w/e, but maybe those aren't random at all either and we just haven't figured out their pattern 🤷[2018-10-25. : 6:46 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- like the net movement sure looks random, but if you follow just one it's not very random at all[2018-10-25. : 6:45 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: FaRTy1billion You really think freedom of choice is an illusion? I don't. So I doubt we'll ever reach an agreement on the "humans are random" matter. I don't think it's as glorified as like "everything you will ever say and do, every person you will ever meet is 100% predetermined and unchangeable", but think of it more like gas particles moving around ... each one is on it's set path until another one or something else happens to come along and knock it in a different direction[2018-10-25. : 6:33 am] NudeRaider -- Natural, because I just never felt like an outside force is guiding my actions, or that I would never truly have a choice.[2018-10-25. : 6:27 am] NudeRaider -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: crazy concept imo. Also I thought quantum mechanics stripped it of all base in logic. actually, let me reword that. Quantum mechanics makes the - what I feel is the - much more natural explanation possible[2018-10-25. : 6:25 am] NudeRaider -- Voyager7456Voyager7456 shouted: Don't worry about it though, we never had any choice in whether we would reach an agreement or not   [2018-10-25. : 6:25 am] NudeRaider -- crazy concept imo. Also I thought quantum mechanics stripped it of all base in logic.[2018-10-25. : 6:17 am] Voyager7456 -- Don't worry about it though, we never had any choice in whether we would reach an agreement or not [2018-10-25. : 6:17 am] Voyager7456 -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: FaRTy1billion You really think freedom of choice is an illusion? I don't. So I doubt we'll ever reach an agreement on the "humans are random" matter. I do[2018-10-25. : 6:13 am] NudeRaider -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: NudeRaider I feel like fate or predestiny or w/e is too glorified and romanticized of a concept, but ya. it is probably an illusion You really think freedom of choice is an illusion? I don't. So I doubt we'll ever reach an agreement on the "humans are random" matter.[2018-10-25. : 6:05 am] NudeRaider -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: NudeRaider except I'll probably remember (at least partially) the first list and intentionally choose different numbers XD I admit that would make the experiment invalid. Maybe it's still possible to not remember the 2-nth number. Any ideas for a better experiment?[2018-10-25. : 6:00 am] NudeRaider -- But I should note, that it obviously only works if you actually try to generate random numbers. Of course any human is capable to write down non-random numbers. Which introduces another bias: Humans are less likely to write down the same number twice in a set or, even next to each other, than random chance.[2018-10-25. : 5:57 am] NudeRaider -- see? SO many options. You don't even know yourself what you gonna do. Random.[2018-10-25. : 3:25 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- or that I chose only random numbers that are contained within the set of single-digit base-1 numbers[2018-10-25. : 3:24 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- or I'll just pick all 1's and say that they are truly random, this was just an extremely unlikely outcome[2018-10-25. : 3:24 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- or maybe I'll try to disprove you and then try to remember the same list of numbers XD[2018-10-25. : 3:24 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: FaRTy1billion take an insider then. Write down 20 random numbers. When finished, do it again, starting with the same number. Compare both sheets. They should be wildly different. except I'll probably remember (at least partially) the first list and intentionally choose different numbers XD[2018-10-25. : 3:22 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: FaRTy1billion that means that freedom of choice would not exist. Your past experiences define every single decision you are ever gonna make. While it's not entirely implausible - in fact some people do believe in fate - I say that that it's not the case. I simply don't feel like every decision I make could have only gone that way. But who knows maybe it *is* an illusion? I feel like fate or predestiny or w/e is too glorified and romanticized of a concept, but ya. it is probably an illusion[2018-10-25. : 1:11 am] jjf28 -- KrayZeeKrayZee shouted: Wing Zero At the end of the video, you can finally sexually identify as an Attack Helicopter. quality meme[2018-10-24. : 8:05 am] NudeRaider -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: and in the case of FaRTy1billion , some thought that goes in is like perhaps the first number that does come to mind is too round, too even or just in someway lacking some "random" characteristic, so I will think of several numbers and then usually pick one that "feels" random. But after considering that process, that number is actually in no way random XD what you describe there is bias. The numbers you chose to chose from are in my opinion non-derterministic. The process of choosing one from the set is biased towards your perception of what feels random.[2018-10-24. : 8:01 am] NudeRaider -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: so, especially to an outside observer (i.e., another person), you may do something perceived as random, but that's just because they don't share the same experiences or thought processes behind such a decision or action take an insider then. Write down 20 random numbers. When finished, do it again, starting with the same number. Compare both sheets. They should be wildly different.[2018-10-24. : 7:55 am] NudeRaider -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: NudeRaider idk what bottom lining means to summarize and/or simplify the statement to "what it comes down to". Because I didn't understand the context or meaning of it.[2018-10-24. : 7:54 am] NudeRaider -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: also, the main reason I say humans aren't random is because any time you make a decision or do something you are basing it on basically the sum of your past experiences ... I don't think there are any decisions that can be made randomly, there just may be way too many variables to ever be able to consider that means that freedom of choice would not exist. Your past experiences define every single decision you are ever gonna make. While it's not entirely implausible - in fact some people do believe in fate - I say that that it's not the case. I simply don't feel like every decision I make could have only gone that way. But who knows maybe it *is* an illusion?[2018-10-24. : 6:45 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- Also, if someone just asks me for a number I'll probably pick numbers I see most often (powers of two, for example), but if they specifically ask for a "random" number I would tend to avoid those numbers because they don't "feel" random[2018-10-24. : 6:42 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- and in the case of FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: NudeRaider Maybe externally, but if someone asks me for a random number there is a nontrivial amount of thought that goes in to it XD , some thought that goes in is like perhaps the first number that does come to mind is too round, too even or just in someway lacking some "random" characteristic, so I will think of several numbers and then usually pick one that "feels" random. But after considering that process, that number is actually in no way random XD |
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