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[2018-10-29. : 6:01 pm]  Vrael -- I'm hoping the backlash from angry democrats and disenfranchised trump supporters will allow someone else to be elected[2018-10-29. : 6:01 pm] NudeRaider -- VraelVrael shouted: NudeRaider the concepts 'deterministic' and 'non-deterministic' might simply be categories of action, rather than the binary halves of a single universal descriptor. if they're categorical, we could have additional categories because certain actions can't be adequately described by those two known categories what are you saying? Either I can predict an action based on the current state or I can't. There is no third. Everything that cannot be accurately and reliably predicted is automatically non-deterministic. Although I could imagine it's not necessarily automatically random then. Right now I can't think of anything else it could be, but as you've said who knows if there isn't something we haven't observed or understood yet. However since we don't even have a hint of that yet, I'd put that into the philosophical category and would not like to discuss it at the moment.[2018-10-29. : 5:55 pm] NudeRaider -- Pr0nogoPr0nogo shouted: listen, i am your president, and i know everything, so i know you all have the free will to vote me in for a second term im kind of confident that that's what's gonna happen[2018-10-29. : 4:38 pm]  Pr0nogo -- listen, i am your president, and i know everything, so i know you all have the free will to vote me in for a second term[2018-10-29. : 3:52 pm] Vrael -- bit of a big claim to me though that 'every' or 'every possible' action is either random or deterministic, considering how little of the universe we've explored[2018-10-29. : 3:48 pm] Vrael -- my point was just that it's a little silly to pigeon-hole the universe into our way of thinking just because its simple, it is also possible that the random/deterministic dichotomy is a universal constant[2018-10-29. : 3:42 pm] Vrael -- 'free-will' might be itself a category of action - those actions which are neither random nor predictable[2018-10-29. : 3:41 pm] Vrael -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: what else could it be? the concepts 'deterministic' and 'non-deterministic' might simply be categories of action, rather than the binary halves of a single universal descriptor. if they're categorical, we could have additional categories because certain actions can't be adequately described by those two known categories[2018-10-29. : 2:30 pm] Oh_Man -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Oh_Man Isn't the post-truth guys basically the church in the middle ages? yep[2018-10-29. : 7:06 am] NudeRaider -- But I already wished that  shows a little technohead and now I can't wish anything anymore  [2018-10-29. : 6:34 am] NudeRaider -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: jjf28 but nihilism isn't scary Depends. Moral nihilism is. Exisitential nihilism isn't.[2018-10-29. : 3:35 am]  O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: MTiger156 we could discuss something scary... like nihilism but nihilism isn't scary [2018-10-28. : 1:27 pm] jjf28 -- MTiger156MTiger156 shouted: yall giving me a headache with quantum physics and philosophy. can we get some spooky memes plz? we could discuss something scary... like nihilism [2018-10-28. : 7:16 am] NudeRaider -- Dem0nDem0n shouted: who knows Devourer and he says its random - meaning it's pseudorandom[2018-10-28. : 7:16 am] NudeRaider -- Dem0nDem0n shouted: bruh I've gotten like five 0 boxes in a row smh you only got what you deserve for playing. The house always wins[2018-10-28. : 3:13 am] MTiger156 -- yall giving me a headache with quantum physics and philosophy. can we get some spooky memes plz?[2018-10-27. : 11:08 pm] Moose -- Dem0nDem0n shouted: bruh I've gotten like five 0 boxes in a row smh But is this random or deterministic?[2018-10-27. : 8:02 pm] Vrael -- why does it have to be random or deterministic? without some clear observations seems silly to pidgeon-hole it prematurely[2018-10-27. : 7:57 pm] NudeRaider -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: jjf28 What I implied was that the brain is all chemical reactions and neurons firing. And that is already happening at tiny scales. And at these scales quantum randomness can become the tip of the iceberg when faced with two options where no strong pathways in one or the other direction exist. oops wrong idiom. I meant quantum randomness can tip the scales[2018-10-27. : 7:55 pm] NudeRaider -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: "out agents possibly consisting of parts not bound by determinism" if anyone has arguments for this I'll hear it out the random quantum world influences our macro world. Hence our world must have a random component. Example: Radioactive decay is random, so if and where a gamma ray hits your DNA is random. DNA can become cancerous if hit by too much gamma rays or hit in critical areas so it can't repair itself. Cancer kills people. I don't think I need to continue this chain?[2018-10-27. : 7:49 pm] jjf28 -- Mini Moose 2707Mini Moose 2707 shouted: True identity co creates the progressive expansion of mortality. I doubt it[2018-10-27. : 7:43 pm] NudeRaider -- NudeRaiderNudeRaider shouted: Oh_Man Isn't the post-truth guys basically the church in the middle ages? or radical islamists now[2018-10-27. : 7:43 pm] NudeRaider -- Oh_Man Isn't the post-truth guys basically the church in the middle ages?[2018-10-27. : 7:37 pm] NudeRaider -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: Ooh, I just thought of an example. idk if this happens to you, but it happens to me. Say you are at a restaurant and can't decide between two choices, so you flip a coin. You see the result, but then disagree with it and choose the other option. Did the coin actually influence your decision? interesting. No, I've never flipped a coin to do a decision for me. Instinctively I answered "no, the coin didn't have influence on the decision", but thinkning about it a bit, I have a theory: It made the decision more real for you. Your mind had to face the fact that it's gonna get that dish now. And suddenly it wasn't a theoretical decision anymore where you weighed factors like price taste, ingredients and whatnot, but also about how you 'feel' about the whole dish at the moment. It shifted your decision process from analytical to emotional. Just a theory, but it would explain why it helped you decide.[2018-10-27. : 7:29 pm] NudeRaider -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: on the flip side, if someone wants to defend a contention that free will exists, and they run to something like quantum indeterminacy they would need to flesh out such a contention jjf28 (or reveal what their hidden assumptions are that cause them to think randomness supports free will) What I implied was that the brain is all chemical reactions and neurons firing. And that is already happening at tiny scales. And at these scales quantum randomness can become the tip of the iceberg when faced with two options where no strong pathways in one or the other direction exist.[2018-10-27. : 7:22 pm] NudeRaider -- Circling back to the original premise: Are humans random? Well only if faced with options that you have no disposition to. See vector analogy. That's why the "name a sequence of random numbers" works so well.[2018-10-27. : 7:20 pm] NudeRaider -- So free will, as in completely free doesn't really exist, because your whole life your way of thinking has been shaped and you are inside this box. Initially you could have become anyone but that freedom of your will is shrinking as you mature. It's possible to break out of this box, but it's very hard. Try changing any of your habits and you know what I mean. And that is where the free part comes back. You have basically unlimited options, but at the same time it's much more likely you're gonna think and act a certain way.[2018-10-27. : 7:16 pm] NudeRaider -- about this whole free will thing: I think it's both random and deterministic. Not just either. You are who you are, so you are gonna respond to certain situations in a certain way. And that is quite predictable by someone that knows you. However sometimes a decision is between two things you both agree or disagree with and even your best friend or even yourself might not be able to tell which you're gonna chose. I like to think of it as a vector that'S determined by your personality, and possibly genetics. And for each decision this vector will point exactly in one direction with a defined length. But at its tip is another vector that influences it a little. It can't change a clear decision, but it has influence on those corner cases. And that little vector is random. An then there's a medium sized vector too. Usually it just points in a certain direction, but that can change when you're angry, in love, or terrified. These are your emotions and hormones.[2018-10-27. : 5:58 pm] jjf28 -- cause the universe is finite it would only need to do a finite amount of work, but it can't be bound by time cause then it wouldn't know it's own outputs before it had calculated them[2018-10-27. : 5:48 pm] jjf28 -- oh I have a better word for this let's go: a timeless processor is what I would call something that can that can do an unbounded amount of work in zero time[2018-10-27. : 5:38 pm] jjf28 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: jjf28 I thought infinite isn't possible in reality, it's only a concept it is just a concept in our space-time, but when you leave our space time and discuss something that's timeless it's an appropriate descriptor[2018-10-27. : 5:37 pm] jjf28 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Any theologian is going to point to number 2 on ur lil symbols there and say that premise is not sound uhh.. 2? the think that natural forces are not deterministic or random? I would think a theologian would be prepared to grant you a separation between natural and supernatural forces[2018-10-27. : 5:23 pm] Oh_Man -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: Oh_Man ya o.O, timeless processor is what I would call something that can that can do an infinite amount of work in zero time I thought infinite isn't possible in reality, it's only a concept[2018-10-27. : 5:19 pm] Oh_Man -- Any theologian is going to point to number 2 on ur lil symbols there and say that premise is not sound[2018-10-27. : 5:17 pm] jjf28 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: symbolic logic, srsly?? ya o.O, timeless processor is what I would call something that can that can do an infinite amount of work in zero time[2018-10-27. : 1:58 pm] jjf28 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: jjf28 Basically what Im trying to say jj there is no third option. Brain function is either deterministic or indeterministic (probabilistic) and free will unless redefined is a myth I get it, but that seems like an assertion you haven't really defended, I think you could add Naturalism and complete your argument something like https://puu.sh/BRNyy/3806ab100c.png[2018-10-27. : 1:18 pm] Roy -- I figured out and fully understood the relativity of time between organisms when I was 9. At around the same time, I thought I invented multiverse theory and collective consciousness theory. Also when I was 9, my Runescape username was "death2taxes" because I inherently recognized taxation as robbery (without being told). My childhood was a nightmare, in part because I was as much, if not more cognizant and rational than most adults, yet treated as a second class citizen on the grounds that I inherently must lack cognizance, due to the omnipotent legal and social restrictions on anybody below some stupid arbitrary age line.[2018-10-27. : 12:05 pm] jjf28 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Determinism is at times understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do. The theory holds that the universe is utterly rational because complete knowledge of any given situation assures that unerring knowledge of its future is also possible.[ Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: If we were to attain complete knowledge aka the Theory of Everything and could predict the future wouldn't that create a paradox? only if it's possible to alter the future (which assuming determination, it's not), perfectly predicting everything implies we have a timeless processor (one that knows what output it will produce "before" producing it) so I'm pretty sure the case arising is impossible - but assuming we could change the future and we had such a processor it would create a paradox[2018-10-27. : 11:51 am] jjf28 -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Did this whole convo start because I asked how SC switches we started talking predetermination on discord not too long ago[2018-10-27. : 7:16 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- jjf28jjf28 shouted: FaRTy1billion what does it matter? it's not like you control something that's random, it's literally random ya, but can RNG manip[2018-10-27. : 6:11 am] Oh_Man -- If we know the future we can change the future and if we can change the future how can we know the future[2018-10-27. : 6:09 am] Oh_Man -- If we were to attain complete knowledge aka the Theory of Everything and could predict the future wouldn't that create a paradox?[2018-10-27. : 6:08 am] Oh_Man -- Determinism is at times understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do. The theory holds that the universe is utterly rational because complete knowledge of any given situation assures that unerring knowledge of its future is also possible.[[2018-10-27. : 6:08 am] Oh_Man -- I have a question on a slightly different topic I am interested to hear thoughts on: |
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