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[2016-11-10. : 5:20 am]  Fire_Kame -- but again, it starts at a lower level. You throw someone into a highly competitive university program that before wasn't able to keep up with national peers on a high school level, usually due to poor school funding which is due to the community's lower income, it's setting them up for failure[2016-11-10. : 5:19 am] Fire_Kame -- AhliAhli shouted: I assume that poor people do better in university because they have a better motivation, they have a higher opportunity cost. in some cases, this is true. Unfortunately one of the biggest criticisms of affirmative action is that by pushing minorities through the system based only on their race, they drop out, leaving a predominately white (and smaller) graduating class. The argument there being if they had just nulled race to begin with and gone with merit, there may have been a higher completion rate[2016-11-10. : 5:18 am]  O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: Farty you are a SJW by my definition Is it because I said "Whites"?[2016-11-10. : 5:18 am] Fire_Kame -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: Farty you are a SJW by my definition ITT anyone who disagrees with Cecil is an SJW[2016-11-10. : 5:17 am] Fire_Kame -- eventually you'll accidentally hit caPS LOCK AND THEN YOU'LL TYPE LIKE THIS[2016-11-10. : 5:17 am] Ahli -- I assume that poor people do better in university because they have a better motivation, they have a higher opportunity cost.[2016-11-10. : 5:17 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- And not because of merit, but because of cities designed to keep black in the ghettos from way back in the segregation days[2016-11-10. : 5:16 am] Fire_Kame -- omg you're now capitalising RACIST like we didn't see it the first five hundred times you said it[2016-11-10. : 5:16 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: Ahli Then maybe the test score requirements should be dropped for everyone. But definitely not in a RACIST fashion then nothing would be changed[2016-11-10. : 5:16 am] CecilSunkure -- AhliAhli shouted: I assume that more people can pass in a university than there are accepted, cecil Then maybe the test score requirements should be dropped for everyone. But definitely not in a RACIST fashion[2016-11-10. : 5:15 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- AhliAhli shouted: I assume that more people can pass in a university than there are accepted, cecil This[2016-11-10. : 5:15 am] Ahli -- I assume that more people can pass in a university than there are accepted, cecil[2016-11-10. : 5:15 am] CecilSunkure -- And massaging a test score in a RACIST fashion will not make those 12 years of prior problems magically disappear over a long-term application of RACIST policies[2016-11-10. : 5:14 am] CecilSunkure -- If they don't test well, they aren't likely to perform well, probably because of huge poverty problems with the first 12 years of public education[2016-11-10. : 5:14 am] CecilSunkure -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: CecilSunkure Why not? Once someone gets to a good school they have to perform well to absorb the information, and then make good use of it[2016-11-10. : 5:14 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: Also, the first one is racist See FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: CecilSunkure Because you're stuck on the first step [2016-11-10. : 5:13 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: FaRTy1billion Nope. Why not?[2016-11-10. : 5:13 am] Fire_Kame -- I wish SEN was a college and this was like a common room so Farty and I could go watch tv in my dorm[2016-11-10. : 5:12 am] CecilSunkure -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: Literally going to school to get educated does not lead to education? Nope.[2016-11-10. : 5:12 am] CecilSunkure -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: CecilSunkure How? Getting accepted in to college does not lead to better education? Nope. It leads to getting accepted to a better college.[2016-11-10. : 5:12 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- Literally going to school to get educated does not lead to education?[2016-11-10. : 5:12 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: FaRTy1billion Every single arrow after the second two arrows is fantasy How? Getting accepted in to college does not lead to better education?[2016-11-10. : 5:11 am] CecilSunkure -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: CecilSunkure Because you're stuck on the first step Every single arrow after the second two arrows is fantasy[2016-11-10. : 5:11 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: FaRTy1billion That's a nice fantasy! I say fantasy because many of those arrows are completely broken. Because you're stuck on the first step[2016-11-10. : 5:10 am] Fire_Kame -- AhliAhli shouted: I'm not sure if being racist to fix racism is a good solution... aren't there other criteria like the income of parents, e.g. poorer people have it easier to start studying to break a cycle of poverty? the problem is, at least right now, poorer areas = minorities. I agree it's a broken system. The problem is that breaking poverty has to happen on a much more local level, and there are some legitimately corrupt local governments. Ferguson didn't accidentally become racist.[2016-11-10. : 5:10 am] CecilSunkure -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: Improved test scores -> higher acceptance in to colleges -> higher education available for an entire population who would not normally have it available -> better jobs for said people -> can afford better educations for their children -> such policies stop being necessary That's a nice fantasy! I say fantasy because many of those arrows are completely broken.[2016-11-10. : 5:10 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- Improved test scores -> higher acceptance in to colleges -> higher education available for an entire population who would not normally have it available -> better jobs for said people -> can afford better educations for their children -> such policies stop being necessary[2016-11-10. : 5:08 am] CecilSunkure -- AhliAhli shouted: I'm not sure if being racist to fix racism is a good solution... aren't there other criteria like the income of parents, e.g. poorer people have it easier to start studying to break a cycle of poverty? Yes. Actually Trump talks about this all the time.[2016-11-10. : 5:08 am] Ahli -- I'm not sure if being racist to fix racism is a good solution... aren't there other criteria like the income of parents, e.g. poorer people have it easier to start studying to break a cycle of poverty?[2016-11-10. : 5:08 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- See: Fire_KameFire_Kame shouted: Ahli Usually in a matrix of GPA x SAT, a combination of the two must be met in order to be eligible for colleges. THe more applicants, the more competition. The issue is that there is such a push for minorities to get into college that their requirements are typically lowered. [2016-11-10. : 5:08 am] CecilSunkure -- It is *trying* to provide oppurtunity and it is *trying* to make the diversity numbers better. But I don't at all in any way think that's what it actually does[2016-11-10. : 5:07 am] CecilSunkure -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: It's providing opportunity for a disadvantaged (by historical design caused by actual detrimental racism, mind you) people, so that further generations will not need the assistance and such policies will be unnecessary No it's not! It's artificially adjusting test scores! There's no "opportunity" granted! When you get to a higher education you still have to keep performing. You don't magically have that education you lacked for 12 years of public school.[2016-11-10. : 5:06 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- It's providing opportunity for a disadvantaged (by historical design caused by actual detrimental racism, mind you) people, so that further generations will not need the assistance and such policies will be unnecessary[2016-11-10. : 5:05 am] CecilSunkure -- Artificially adjusting the scores muddies the reality of the situation. It massages the numbers to hide root cause problems[2016-11-10. : 5:05 am] CecilSunkure -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: CecilSunkure Meaning what? If the poverty is so bad, the schools are in such terrible condition, the test scores should reflect that. The test scores should give solid data of a problem that needs to be fixed[2016-11-10. : 5:05 am] Fire_Kame -- AhliAhli shouted: the SAT scores are used to filter out applicants to finally have X students for X available slots? Usually in a matrix of GPA x SAT, a combination of the two must be met in order to be eligible for colleges. THe more applicants, the more competition. The issue is that there is such a push for minorities to get into college that their requirements are typically lowered.[2016-11-10. : 5:04 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: FaRTy1billion By making reality clearer. Meaning what?[2016-11-10. : 5:04 am] CecilSunkure -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: CecilSunkure And how will that reduce poverty and race gaps? By making reality clearer.[2016-11-10. : 5:04 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- not even necessarily race gaps, but education in ghettos[2016-11-10. : 5:04 am] CecilSunkure -- There's a near zero cost way to remove bureaucratic clutter that bogs down the ability to reason about the facts of reality.[2016-11-10. : 5:04 am] Ahli -- the SAT scores are used to filter out applicants to finally have X students for X available slots?[2016-11-10. : 5:03 am] Fire_Kame -- that's why in the article "bonus" is always in quotations, because it's a literal bonus or modifier to the data, not a physical change to the data[2016-11-10. : 5:03 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: Oh I have a great way to improve the system: stop adjusting test scores. And how will that reduce poverty and race gaps?[2016-11-10. : 5:03 am] CecilSunkure -- Oh I have a great way to improve the system: stop adjusting test scores.[2016-11-10. : 5:03 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: Farty I get that the motivation comes from a good place. But in the end all it does racially discriminate see: FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: it's probably not the best way, but I don't see you thinking up something better to bridge poverty and racial gaps [2016-11-10. : 5:03 am] CecilSunkure -- The effectiveness of it? Oh okay so it's alright to be racist if someone thinks it's "effective"[2016-11-10. : 5:03 am] Fire_Kame -- AhliAhli shouted: I guess that it's easier to just boost scores instead of investing into the kids of the financially/educationally less fortunate. it doesn't literally change the scores. It says "if you're black, you only need a score of 100, if you're asian, you need a score of 500" that isn't changing the raw data, that's changing how it's measured. Cecil is too emotional to understand that.[2016-11-10. : 5:02 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- like you're just seeing THEY'RE LOWERING MY SCORE. instead of thinking about why it is happening[2016-11-10. : 5:02 am] CecilSunkure -- Farty I get that the motivation comes from a good place. But in the end all it does racially discriminate[2016-11-10. : 5:02 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: FaRTy1billion You're just stating what it's trying to do, not what it's actually doing because I haven't researched the effectiveness of it, or even how long it's been in place[2016-11-10. : 5:02 am] CecilSunkure -- FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: CecilSunkure See: FaRTy1billion You're just stating what it's trying to do, not what it's actually doing[2016-11-10. : 5:02 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- AhliAhli shouted: I guess that it's easier to just boost scores instead of investing into the kids of the financially/educationally less fortunate. there are grants and stuff for that, but funding is limited and people bitch about that too[2016-11-10. : 5:01 am] Ahli -- I guess that it's easier to just boost scores instead of investing into the kids of the financially/educationally less fortunate.[2016-11-10. : 5:01 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: How does artificially adjusting test scores improve society??? See: FaRTy1billionFaRTy1billion shouted: It's trying to remedy the lasting consequences of segregation ;o Minorities were pushed to the ghettos which are still socioeconomic sinkholes where education and jobs are lacking, and it's to create opportunity to end the cycle [2016-11-10. : 5:01 am] CecilSunkure -- How does artificially adjusting test scores improve society???[2016-11-10. : 5:01 am] O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- CecilSunkureCecilSunkure shouted: I don't care what it's "trying to do". What it *is doing* is what matters to me inconveniencing you, personally, slightly in order to try and improve society? |