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[04:14 pm]  Vrael -- perhaps there is a small professional player trapped in a box in the server rack where pluto is running? hmm?[02:49 pm]  Oh_Man -- it doesnt need maphack. the person who stole it and is using it on the ladder is using it with maphack. all its training was done with normal fog of war[01:28 pm] NimoStar -- Unless specifically logged and retrained. But that wasn't in the original version. It just played itself[01:28 pm] NimoStar -- it has a static training, which is converted into weights. it doesn't actually learn from new games.[01:05 pm] NudeRaider -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: No training is very computational expensivr it doesnt train in real time tht culd actually be used against it oh but alphastar training was *very* cpu intensive.[11:31 am] Oh_Man -- No training is very computational expensivr it doesnt train in real time tht culd actually be used against it[11:11 am] NudeRaider -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: Hope that makes sense. Also artosiscast just dropped a 1 hour vid he analayses a bunch of its games. The TLDR is the maphack is responsible for a large percentage of its wins because its just hard countering zerg rushes People keep mentioning it's a bot using reinforced self-learning (or w/e the correct term is) but I wonder, does it still actively learn now that it is deployed? How does that work? Or was it trained on like 100k games playing against itself and now training is finished and its capabilties are now static?[05:15 am] Oh_Man -- Hope that makes sense. Also artosiscast just dropped a 1 hour vid he analayses a bunch of its games. The TLDR is the maphack is responsible for a large percentage of its wins because its just hard countering zerg rushes[05:14 am] Oh_Man -- It's EMULATING the behaviour of a control group select and move without having the actual functionality to do that[05:13 am] Oh_Man -- VraelVrael shouted: yeah but it looks like pluto's eAPM is still 6000 based on issuing all those orders k the APM is inflated because it issues 12 identical orders individually. Its not 12 unique orders[03:02 am] Vrael -- which does reduce down to the same tradeoff I mentioned below, aka trading APM for time, but still interesting[03:01 am] Vrael -- and while the reaver was reloading it used that time to aggregate enough marine/tank to fend it off[03:01 am] Vrael -- like its micro vs one of the in-base reaver drops was pretty insane, basically it made the reaver spend 1 scarab per unit instead of 1 scarab for many workers/units[02:58 am] Vrael -- all the stuff I've said below is based on the actual gameplay vs some strong human performers, seems like the bot just has unfair advantages, but its also doing some cool stuff[02:57 am] Vrael -- NimoStarNimoStar shouted: If its any consolation, the human brain would still mop the floor with this bot if it wasn't limited by the mechanical interface I mean human brains trained the bot too, its not completely infeasible for the bot to actually be strong in certain scenarios[10:13 pm] Oh_Man -- No APM in chess. Computer just outthinks the human by seeing more moves ahead and more permutations[2026-9-20. : 5:47 pm] NimoStar -- If its any consolation, the human brain would still mop the floor with this bot if it wasn't limited by the mechanical interface[2026-9-20. : 5:34 pm] NimoStar -- Well. The bot didn't come up with any new strategy. It just has superhuman micro. Hard to beat that. I reckon even the simplest dedicated chess engines are unbeatable for humans now.[2026-9-20. : 10:54 am] NudeRaider -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: NudeRaider did u watch the entire video? it's not one game. it's currently dominating the ladder at number 1 position. do ur research first! Oops, caught me there, no I haven't.  I was imagining how the game went. Sorry for that. Watching it now. brb[2026-9-20. : 10:52 am] NudeRaider -- NimoStarNimoStar shouted: They were not "Unprepared" that was their fifth loss in a row against the bot. The other replays are also available that doesn't mean he was prepared. When humans come around with new strategies it often takes weeks until the pros figure out how to shut it down. Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: https://youtu.be/GiQ-cDtsZYw that's certainly a way more convincing argument for micro being "too good to beat".[2026-9-20. : 8:35 am] NimoStar -- Well, pros showed that long ago... half of zerg pros just ling muta rush[2026-9-20. : 8:35 am] NimoStar -- " its shown is that you can trade 1000's of apm to make up for lack of strategy"[2026-9-20. : 3:12 am] Oh_Man -- bunch of replays here: https://davechurchill.ca/starcraft/cog/results/2026/report/[2026-9-20. : 3:07 am] Vrael -- though I wonder if at that level basically almost every match is over in like 3 minutes[2026-9-20. : 3:06 am] Oh_Man -- thats how it was trained to begin with, thousands of AI vs AI matches[2026-9-20. : 3:06 am] Vrael -- if your mediocre army can fight perfectly every time, why bother with strategy[2026-9-20. : 3:05 am] Vrael -- but from a gameplay perspective I think all its shown is that you can trade 1000's of apm to make up for lack of strategy[2026-9-20. : 3:04 am] Oh_Man -- yeh essentially the mutalisk ball's effective HP is a LOT lower vs that[2026-9-20. : 3:04 am] Vrael -- cause like AttackUnitByID(ID_of_damaged_muta); is a lot different than clicking on it visually in the stack[2026-9-20. : 3:03 am] Oh_Man -- it wuldnt surprise me if this thing starts essentially "solving" SCBW, or at the very least discovering new metas[2026-9-20. : 3:03 am] Vrael -- well if you have BWAPI information you can do the zerg muta ball thing[2026-9-20. : 3:02 am] Oh_Man -- so far it's shown u can dmoniate toss with completely non-traditional units AND its shown u can shutdown zerg muta-ball without building a single missile turret[2026-9-20. : 3:02 am] Vrael -- individually healing marines with a single medic micro was pretty cool[2026-9-20. : 3:01 am] Vrael -- well I want to see it put its 6000 apm to good use, by destroying humans in interesting ways[2026-9-20. : 3:00 am] Oh_Man -- i cannot comment any more beyond just quoting wat the expert is saying unfortunately i dont know anything bout this stuff[2026-9-20. : 3:00 am] Oh_Man -- they have a long way to go until they cvan make a truly 'fair' AI vs human matchup[2026-9-20. : 3:00 am] Vrael -- yeah but it looks like pluto's eAPM is still 6000 based on issuing all those orders[2026-9-20. : 2:59 am] Oh_Man -- "Additionally humans have to take actions to get information. Want to know how much health that Zealot has? Got to waste frames and an action selecting it. BWAPI AI wants to know that Zealot's health? It just checks it without having to select it nor waste the frames."[2026-9-20. : 2:59 am] Oh_Man -- "Pluto taking an action every 6 frames also doesn't mean it'd be on-par with a player with 240 APM. Players usually spam keybinds to inflate their APM and be "in the rythm" when they need a burst of speed. A bot will always outdo them, because its actions all mean something, while a human often does something just to keep "the rythm" going. Difference between APM and effective APM."[2026-9-20. : 2:58 am] Vrael -- if its issuing 12 commands in a single 'action' to 12 separate units, (and based on the gameplay footage we know these 12 commands are truly 12 independent commands), I don't see where the inflation is coming from[2026-9-20. : 2:57 am] Oh_Man -- " as far as I remember about about bwapi internal workings, you can order a unit to do an action by calling a method. However, in-game way to order a unit is to select it first, then order the unit around (or a bunch of units). It takes 2 actions for a human to select 12 units and order them to attack, however, the dude who implemented this, probably selects each individual unit and orders it around in the same frame, meaning that it will have 12 times more actions for the same operation a human is doing."[2026-9-20. : 2:57 am] Vrael -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: "- Pluto takes one action every 6 frames, which is exactly 240 APM. But when it issues commands to 12 units, they get counted as 12 separate commands, inflating the displayed APM." I actually dont understand this, like, how is it exactly 240 apm but also 6000 apm[2026-9-20. : 2:55 am] Oh_Man -- VraelVrael shouted: one action every 6 frames *gets out calculator* lets see are they using hyper triggers? lol[2026-9-20. : 2:55 am] Oh_Man -- also inrersting: "- "333" is also running Pluto with maphacks enabled. Pluto is designed to play with normal vision. It's not even clear that the maphack is helping Pluto more than it's confusing Pluto."[2026-9-20. : 2:55 am] Vrael -- one action every 6 frames *gets out calculator* lets see are they using hyper triggers?[2026-9-20. : 2:54 am] Vrael -- and yeah its cool that the AI makes weird units but if I had 6000 apm I could probably just micro scv's and kill anyone[2026-9-20. : 2:54 am] Oh_Man -- "- Pluto takes one action every 6 frames, which is exactly 240 APM. But when it issues commands to 12 units, they get counted as 12 separate commands, inflating the displayed APM."[2026-9-20. : 2:54 am] Oh_Man -- this is wat he said i was referring to so i dont accidently strawman him: |
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