Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 UMS Theory and Ideas > Topic: Dynamic VHP for multiple, spawned units
Dynamic VHP for multiple, spawned units
Dec 13 2009, 1:59 am
By: Jack
Pages: < 1 2 3
 

Dec 15 2009, 3:50 am CecilSunkure Post #41



Quote from Kaias
Quote from CecilSunkure
All attacking affects would be shown via death affects.
Ah, the attacking is done virtually as well, rather than each unit actually killing a vHP unit. This makes your system lose much of the natural starcraft mechanics (essentially all of them), and reduces its usefulness. The rest of the internal organs are best left internal.

Quote from CecilSunkure
Now, you need a location over each individual unit, so that you can tell the difference between each unit. In order to constantly update the locations over these units, you need to use burrowed units, under every battle active unit, to use to cycle through and center locations, every trigger cycle.
Why? this seems extremely unnecessary.
It just gives the mapper more control over everything -which is what I would want went making a VHP map. The whole point was to be able to control every aspect of how the battling mechanic works. I wouldn't want units be able to actually attack each other. So yes, it is VHP as well as.. Virtual Attacking Mechanics (VAM).

Shall I give this concept a name? I want to call it VBM, Virtual Battle Mechanics :lol:

I really want to make a concept map for it, to see how fun it is.



None.

Dec 15 2009, 5:47 am Kaias Post #42



Quote from Kaias
Quote from CecilSunkure
Now, you need a location over each individual unit, so that you can tell the difference between each unit. In order to constantly update the locations over these units, you need to use burrowed units, under every battle active unit, to use to cycle through and center locations, every trigger cycle.
Why? this seems extremely unnecessary.
You have yet to answer this.

Perhaps I've been in the business too long (read: thought about it as much), but unless a concept is brought to the table that changes the way the basic elements of vHP are done, I can't see it as 'new'

Virtual Health Points at its most basic level is just keeping the health of a unit stored somewhere other than it's physical health (almost invariably in a deathcounter, and why not? it allows the most freedom). Every vHP system must provide a solution to specific problems.

1. How is damage taken and tallied?
2. How is virtual health delineated to the appropriate unit (aka tracking)?


The solution to the first is about control. The methods are never very different:

1. Each instance of damage taken is shown/limited/done in the killing of a unit (whether it be the actual unit dying and being replaced, a zergling to kill beneath, or an observer above to kill).
- The detriment is the level of identification that can be drawn from kill methods, namely, the best that can really be done is the damage done can be attributed to the player that did it, rather than a specific unit. The real dilemma is what you make that player mean (IE a unique hero, an enemy unit type, an level of unit difficulty)

2. Damage is manifest in the detecting the effects of a unit spell (IE EMP, Plague, Lockdown, Psi storm, Ensnare, Dark swarm, Disruption web etc)
- The problem with this methods is that none of them can be attributed to a player. The best that can be known about spell detection is where it is/happened spatially and when it was/is within time. Of course, we can use either of these to ascribe it to a specific player or unit by making it so that only a specific player or unit could've produced the spell within a certain geometric area or within a specific time. However, separating the playing field for each player or unit can ruin the gameplay and forcing the units or players to take turns (to delineate through time) can be even less desirable. Elementa is an excellent example of a map that used spatial separation to attribute the spell to the appropriate player. While normally this physical separation wouldn't make for great gameplay- near perfect mirrored simulation combining the players' physical realms closed the gap.

3. Ultimate handling, where all damage done is in triggers and trigger prompted events (even if prompted by player events)
- For instance, in my Time Down arena map, the only method of damaging a player was through spells which decided which players' unit was in the location and did the appropriate amount of damaging. This is the method you propose in your description. The problem with this method is that you completely sacrifice normal Starcraft fight mechanics. Sometimes this isn't a problem, since normal fight mechanics were never the goal. Every system that uses this must chose how these events play out (how the triggered attacks work) and how they are prompted and directed for the player. There are so many possibilities I won't bother beginning to list them. What makes this method any good is how both of these aspects play out. In the example of Elementa, the events were in the form of projectiles represented by explosions, and the trigger method was Dark Swarming (and unit build selection). In the case of your idea, the event is instant damage and an explosion and the trigger is cooldown and randomization. Using this method, unfortunately, is why I dislike Time Down. Units can run around and cast spells, but the complete lack of physical attacking made the gameplay feel hollow

The solution to the second question (How is virtual health delineated to the appropriate unit (aka tracking)?) is about making units unique:
1. By player (as is done where players have one hero unit),
2. By unique unit (as is done where only one player can have a certain unit (IE Temple Siege) or many boss fights)
3. By spatial position (as is attempted by location following, and similar methods, where the idea is that only a specific unit could possibly be in the location)
4. By any combination of the above (IE Each player has only one of each kind of unit type in each region of the map)
The dilemma with all of these is how many uniques there are within each dimension. In the first there can only be 1 unit per player, in the second there can only be (number of unique units that exist), in the third there can only be units that can't outrun a tracking location. The other dilemma is what you're willing to let be unique (and accordingly rare). For instance, the third method attempts to let units be as plentiful as you have locations for (the problem is which units you can use).


Part of the reason why I like Harm Detection vHP so much, is that it sacrifices very minimal of Starcraft fight mechanics, provides all the benefits of vHP and the price is (in its most useful form) singleplayer and at most 7 enemies at a time, which, in many instances is already the case.

I'm not quite sure how my post got so long; it may as well be a vHP article for the wiki.



None.

Dec 15 2009, 6:06 am CecilSunkure Post #43



Quote from Kaias
Quote from Kaias
Quote from CecilSunkure
Now, you need a location over each individual unit, so that you can tell the difference between each unit. In order to constantly update the locations over these units, you need to use burrowed units, under every battle active unit, to use to cycle through and center locations, every trigger cycle.
Why? this seems extremely unnecessary.
You have yet to answer this.
Quote from CecilSunkure
It just gives the mapper more control over everything -which is what I would want went making a VHP map.
That's why. Because it is the best way I could think of to control everything in the ways that I wanted it to (controlling attack cooldowns, attack effects, area of effects, spells, items, multiple unit types, real time battleing, and VHP). I don't think 30 locations is location intensive at all. Sure the trigger work could be considered unnecessary, but I enjoy doing the trigger work anyways.

Maybe I'm tired of the old SC battle mechanics, which is why I don't care for harm detection.

And I wasn't actually serious about the naming thing, just kidding around -but I still want to make a concept map.

[Edit]
Quote from name:Kaia
Units can run around and cast spells, but the complete lack of physical attacking made the gameplay feel hollow
Ah, so you just like normal SC unit fighting.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 15 2009, 6:15 am by CecilSunkure.



None.

Dec 15 2009, 6:26 am Kaias Post #44



Quote from CecilSunkure
Quote from Kaias
Quote from Kaias
Quote from CecilSunkure
Now, you need a location over each individual unit, so that you can tell the difference between each unit. In order to constantly update the locations over these units, you need to use burrowed units, under every battle active unit, to use to cycle through and center locations, every trigger cycle.
Why? this seems extremely unnecessary.
You have yet to answer this.
Quote from CecilSunkure
It just gives the mapper more control over everything -which is what I would want went making a VHP map.
That's why. Because it is the best way I could think of to control everything in the ways that I wanted it to (controlling attack cooldowns, attack effects, area of effects, spells, items, multiple unit types, real time battleing, and VHP). I don't think 30 locations is location intensive at all. Sure the trigger work could be considered unnecessary, but I enjoy doing the trigger work anyways.
You're missing the point of my question: Why condemn each tracked unit to having a burrowed unit slowing it?


Quote from CecilSunkure
Maybe I'm tired of the old SC battle mechanics, which is why I don't care for harm detection.
[Edit]
Quote from Kaias
Units can run around and cast spells, but the complete lack of physical attacking made the gameplay feel hollow
Ah, so you just like normal SC unit fighting.
Nah, I just dislike awkward hybrids. Elementa, for instance, executes the 3rd method beautifully.

Quote from CecilSunkure
And I wasn't actually serious about the naming thing, just kidding around -but I still want to make a concept map.
I understand- and go ahead and make it. I merely typed that up because you weren't able to find a decent article on it, you weren't very aware of all the different forms/methods of vHP (or perhaps just what was typical), and so you know the grounds on which to improve and innovate on.

And to reflect back on what scwizard said- I called Zany's platform inefficient because the location sorting was sorted out between human players uselessly- the absence of that player would cut off access to a portion of units that vHP could be applied to.



None.

Dec 15 2009, 6:44 am Jack Post #45

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

As to that, I just wanted a simple way to explain the idea. There are ways to have a location 'repository', either setting a DC when the location is unused(probably easiest in this case) or moving the locations onto a unique unit off to the side. Then locations can be called from the stack of 'spares' when needed, which is, of course, much more efficient.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Dec 15 2009, 5:56 pm CecilSunkure Post #46



Quote from Kaias
You're missing the point of my question: Why condemn each tracked unit to having a burrowed unit slowing it?
But I just played a map yesterday that had burrowed units underneath characters, and really, it didn't slow anything down. I'm assuming this whole part will be negligible.

Anyways, thanks for the post on VHP. I actually knew about the other two ways, but I didn't ever consider them VHP, for some reason :O



None.

Dec 15 2009, 6:03 pm Kaias Post #47



Quote from CecilSunkure
Quote from Kaias
You're missing the point of my question: Why condemn each tracked unit to having a burrowed unit slowing it?
But I just played a map yesterday that had burrowed units underneath characters, and really, it didn't slow anything down. I'm assuming this whole part will be negligible.
The thing I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't need burrowed units at all for your system. You said that each attack is also done virtually. And yes, slowdown isn't a problem if the update is slow. If it is constant (every loop) then it is pretty bad.

Quote from CecilSunkure
Anyways, thanks for the post on VHP. I actually knew about the other two ways, but I didn't ever consider them VHP, for some reason :O
No problem.



None.

Dec 15 2009, 6:19 pm CecilSunkure Post #48



Quote from Kaias
The thing I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't need burrowed units at all for your system.
Oh, that didn't even cross my mind. I can actually just cycle through the active locations with triggers, without using burrowed units, since I will have my locations all "attached" to unique DCs. I can even add in a second cursor scrolling button to cycle in the opposite direction of the other button -which is much better than having only a 1 direction cycle button with burrowed units.

As for keeping the locations over the units, I can just use the second pc player to spawn units and center locations onto, and then immediately give them back to the primary computer player. From here, I can just constantly keep each location over their corresponding units.

So yeah, I guess I won't need burrowed units if I just use those two methods. Really, I'm not sure why I was assuming I had to use them in the first place :(



None.

Jan 22 2010, 8:18 am Jack Post #49

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

http://www.staredit.net/?file=1864

Test map. Only has four target locations, so only four Kerrigans can have vHP at a time, plus there's a couple of bugs which I haven't bothered to fix. One is to do with Kerris outrunning locations; this could be fixed if I knew what a better location size would be ;D



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Jan 24 2010, 6:42 pm Kaias Post #50



Quote from name:zany_001
http://www.staredit.net/?file=1864

Test map. Only has four target locations, so only four Kerrigans can have vHP at a time, plus there's a couple of bugs which I haven't bothered to fix. One is to do with Kerris outrunning locations; this could be fixed if I knew what a better location size would be ;D
If you are going to solicit this then you should update the OP with how this thing actually works, rather than how you initially speculated it does (see my Pros and Cons list).



None.

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