After a very nostaligic moment I had thanks to Horde (Going all the way back to 2006 and this post http://doodle77.dyndns.org/staticsen.php?st=25695&p=0 ) I noticed something, something all of us have been wondering in the past year. What happened? Why did everyone tire out and become dull inside, mapping not for carefree passion, or knowing you arent using up to date systems.

I think we all lost our emotions when it comes to mapping. None of us treat it like a game anymore, and use SC as a very serious experiance, rather then one, curious about what this wonderful thing called the Campaign editor is. How did we lose our passions, and emotions for that matter, of mapping? Was it the immesive amount of concepts and things we should add to our maps to make them run better?

I could rave on, but this isnt a speech, I want to know what everyone else thinks on the matter. What happened, what slowed you down, etc?

Also, thanks to this, Im planning on remaking a VERY old map to me, in hopes of reclaiming that old childhood dream of fame on the interwebs I had 4 long years ago.

(And yes before you say it, No this isnt like me, I had a very very emotional moment in the shoutbox reminding me of what I used to be, the childish mapper, learning and constucting new stuff that I had never seen before, but in a spamish mannor of course)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 29 2009, 12:44 am by Dark_Marine.

Not me. I make maps because it's fun and I love it when I see people enjoying them to the fullest. My maps have always been toward the simple side, but I finish them most of the time =). My latest map, Hunted, is a step up in complexity and I actually finished it- It makes the hard work you put into the map worth it when you go to the join list and see it being played, and then your friends ask you to host, and rm, and rm... That's why i map.

A main problem I see here, is that no one acts like they care anymore. People get too caught up in super-complex projects that they'll never complete to notice the fun and interesting maps people are still putting out. You know what some map-maker friends of mine say? "Why should I post about my map on SEN, when all they will do is either a) ignore it. or b) talk negatively about it. And damn, With the exception of a few people such as ETFET and maybe some other I can't think of right now- no one says anything encouraging anymore and truly means it.

No offense, but it seems that most SEN members have made the shift from making maps because it's fun and interesting, to SURIES TIMES ONLY K? FUN ONLY ALLOWED IN SHOUTBOX, UNLESS IT'S TOO FUNm THEN GTFO. It's a shame- that's the reason this site is losing activity.

I remember back when I was like 9 years old it was my goal to make the most epic map ever and be in clan U.

I completely forgot to mention that. That was like part of every mappers dream at that time to try to get in (U).

Maybe if we did get in (U) things wouldnt have been so bad

i remember when i used to be able to focus working on maps because it was just so fun finding out what triggers could work each way... now its hard for me to sit down and do more than 5 triggers and saving to do something else...

It's this obsession with "professionalism" that everyone's got...the moment we started judging maps on the basis of something other than how fun they were, things started to go wrong. If people could just put what they wanted into a map and not worry about the rest, many more maps would be completed, with a lot less stress involved. Most of the time, the stuff that gets ignored doesn't really affect the game anyway; it's either useless eye candy, or worse, stuff with no real benefit, but just put in because doing things a different way would have people saying, "You didn't put enough work into this."

Protection hurt things, too...being able to base maps off of other maps, or use terrain and/or trigger systems that already existed instead of having to make your own to do the exact same thing, saved a lot of time and boredom.

What we need to encourage is what gets more results with less work. Let a terrain job done in five minutes that works just as well as extended terrain taking a week be seen as better, not worse, because it's more efficient. Then we'll actually be developing ways of increasing the output and fun of mapping, not reducing it.

Personally, I'm unlikely to ever complete a major project in line with current standards; I've just had too many big projects (by the standards of their time) fail to the extent of never having a full game after many years of the map being done, or even being rejected as worthless by pre-release testers. So it doesn't really feel worth the effort; I'm fine with occasionally making something quick, but then I don't typically end up with something worth releasing.

Yes, but professionalism is what sells the map, it looks better, and it's more friendly and easier to play, it takes an almost insignificant amount of time to make it look professional(admittedly, extended terrain takes a while, and is often unnecessary, but it sets a mood), and it makes it that much better, looks are everything, I mean, look at Microsoft, they resell the same product with minimal changes for years, and just change how it looks to make it more "professional", professionalism is a good thing, but I think that it shouldn't be such a huge factor in judging unless it messes up gameplay somehow.

It only "sells the map" so long as people are inclined to accept it. Looks are only relevant because ever-increasing professionalism has taught people to look for it; early maps got along just fine without it, and in fact have often had a staying power that their supposedly superior successors lacked. Worse than that, though, good older maps are often threatened by the increase in expectations, which cause people to turn away from otherwise superior games; so when you promote professionalism, you actually do harm to the community.

How can you honestly say that the old maps are better than the new professional looking ones? True, it is not necessary to have an enjoyable map, however, it only adds to the enjoyment, and creates a seemless looking project. While you can say that it takes up unnecessary time, it only adds to the map, and you cannot in any way argue that it makes it worse.

Most of the maps that are popular on b.net aren't really professional.

I can honestly say that because the older maps were designed without as many constraints, and so despite being less sophisticated, are often more fun. Where's a modern map with better strategic balance than BattleCruiser Command, with the community of Snipers, with the team cohesiveness of the Space Pirate War series, with the diversity of A Grave Invasion? The so-called best of the new generation are often very impressive works of mapping without any real entertainment value.

It doesn't just take up unnecessary time and add tedium to your map-making process; it also means that everyone else has to spend more time, often on aspects of mapping that they don't enjoy, to produce a map with any particular basic idea (and thus, entertainment factor). Don't underestimate the amount of damage that does, in terms of the number of actual, fun maps that are completed. Furthermore, it causes new players to reject older maps without considering them, making it harder to get games going for the classics.

This is clearly the point of todays topic. Why do we have to suck up to pubbies who are never going to accept us unless we provide them a dumbed down experiance?

You are not being forced to do so, as FTS said, most popular maps on b.net are unprofessional looking, and professionalism does not mean more restraints, I think our ideas of professionalism is different, IMO all it comes down to is how the idea is presented, do you colorize your text, is terrain symmetrical, square or not, when necessary, or does it just look like you slapped it all together.

My idea of a truly professional looking map that is amazing is Rush, extremely professional looking, awesome map, tell me, how would that map have been any worse if it didn't have the professional looks about it?

The password system sucked

And honestly the game would have too had it not been presented the way it was. The music loops, flawless, the action, perfect, the concept and story, truely epic.

I don't know what you really mean, a bit of improper english there, but I think you're saying it would have been just as good without the professionalism, but I disagree, for one, the music loops are a contribution from "professionalism", it's not necessary, it just takes extra time, but it contributes, professionalism is the storyline, if you have some lame run-of-the-mill storyline it's not as exciting.

Of course you're being forced to; look at the reception that's given to a map that doesn't have professionalism. That reception is a result of expectations created by maps with needless professionalism.

People have a limited amount of time and effort to spend on a map. Pushing up against those limits, especially if it's for an aspect of mapping that you don't enjoy, makes the process less fun and reduces the chances that the map will be finished.

Think about it this way: when earlier-generation UMS maps came out, did anyone look at the non-colored text, the use of isometric terrain for basic area sectioning, the slight asymmetries in the layout, and go "OMG newb map" and leave? No; they stayed, they played, and they enjoyed the map. And if people would play those maps without judging them on the basis of professionalism, they could still enjoy them. But that enjoyment has been denied to them because they have been trained to judge maps on the basis of superficial, aesthetic factors. It's just like how "improved" graphics in commercial products have damaged indie gaming; but while commercial games are made for profit, which partially excuses, or at least explains, their self-centered approach, map-making is just something done as a form of play, and when playing, you have to be considerate to your companions, in this case, the greater SC community.

Or think about this: if colored text, for example, had never been discovered, never been used, would anyone care if maps didn't have it?

I think that color and allignment in text is one of the most basic ways to show professionalism, and it often enhances the game with easier to read text/ and possible identity to your ideas such as things in red text relating to fire and ect.

This man knows things. I play his Lingun map regularly =)

No, but if we hadn't invented computers would anyone have cared that they couldn't play video games? It makes it better, even if it takes a bit of time.

That's not true. The overwhelming majority of maps posted in the map production/map showcase get replies. For the second, negative responses, the point of submitting your map is to get criticism so that you can improve your map/streamline it. And people do applaud yours and others efforts, but if that's all we did, it would be useless spam that doesn't do anybody any good. And maybe the negativety isn't because of the people, but because the maps are no longer original. What the old maps had was orginality; there was a whole lot of room for that. Now, originality is hard, but you can give little twists on a genre or change the goal of the game (ie. in a zombie map, rather than survive, maybe the goal of the game can be to rescue as many survivors as possible)