I have a system where players control X amounts of structures pre-placed on the map, e.g. imagine a Supply Depot represents a town or farm that a player is controlling.

I want the system to tell the player which specific structure is giving them income, e.g. "You have received 100 minerals from Farthing".

I can't see how to easily accomplish this without spamming the "Bring" condition to uniquely identify each pre-placed town, since all towns use the same exact unit type. I know how to count buildings using give or binary countoff as someone suggested. But I want to know which specific town provided the income.

I am not able to use EUDs but I wouldn't be surprised if this can solve the problem, e.g. a condition like "Player commands exactly 1 unit with ID 123456".

Yeah.. I think specific locations with the bring condition is the easiest way to do this without EUDs. An alternative with its own complications/issues could be to make a set sequence of specific burrowed units next to each town location and detect that conditionally on a rotating basis when doing your income rotation. Like Farthing could be 1 burrowed P9 zergling, another town could be 1 P10 zergling, another could be a P11 hydra, etc.

Not sure why you're concerned with "spamming" bring conditions, you can create as many as you want. You want a custom action for every town/farm, so not sure how you think you could shortcut it.
What you could be concerned about is number of available locations. If you have enough to dedicate one for each town/farm this is as simple as it gets.

Otherwise burrowed Zerg units, as UV suggested, are a solid choice as well. You can also combine it with a couple of sector locations, if you run out of unique units/players. For example
'Devouring One' for P11 at North-West-Quadrant is New York,
'Devouring One' for P11 at South-West-Quadrant is New Hampton,

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 13 2025, 11:36 am by NudeRaider.

Thanks for your inputs and reassurances. My worry is that once I have several hundred or even 1000s of Bring Conditions, plus hyper triggers, my map could have map lag.

I have PTSD from some fun maps like Hazard Zone (http://www.staredit.net/topic/9954/#13), which is a very fun map, but usually had significant map lag if the game had a full house. Not even sure that map lag was caused by Bring Condition, but given it's one of the most costly conditions, I wouldn't be surprised.

I think you're way over-analyzing the potential impact of bring conditions. I really don't think it's nearly as costly as you think. Especially if you order your triggers in such a way that bring conditions come after stuff like checking death counts and switches (since if one of those evaluates to negative then the bring condition won't even be checked).

Edit: Wanted to provide some additional data to hopefully ease your mind. My latest Impossible UV map has 2,460 bring conditions, 63,851 lines of triggers, plus a whole bunch of way more expensive EUD all unit loop triggers and trigger lag isn't really a problem except for people with really shitty old machines. m.0.n.3.y's NFL Blitz map that I worked on has 2,911 bring conditions, 58,517 lines of triggers, as well as a bunch of EUD stuff. I think you should be safe, SC's trigger handling capacity is more robust than you think.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 2 2025, 5:51 pm by Ultraviolet.

If it's useful information to you, the Bring condition is about as expensive as the other triggers that find units within locations: Command the Least/Most At, Give Units to Player, Kill/Remove Unit at Location, Modify Unit Energy/Hangar Count/Shield/Hit Points/Resource Amount/Shield Points, Move Unit, Order, Set Doodad State, and Set Invincibility.

I think Move Unit may be even more expensive than the rest (including Bring) because it has to find units multiple times; once for the unit(s) to be moved, and once again to find the colliding units (for each unit to be moved).

One thing about the Bring condition is that its performance cost is almost zero on subsequent uses. The list of units it has gathered the first time you ran Bring will remain cached for the remainder of the trigger cycle, for as long as you're using the same location and for as long as the trigger execution doesn't step into the following triggers: Command, Command the Least/Most, Kill/Remove Unit, Kill/Remove Unit At Location, Move Location, and Move Unit.

Also it's worth noting that moving the location with EUDs will not have any effect, and you will have to cause the cache to be refreshed for your Bring condition to accurately reflect your modified location bounds.

should be simple, use deathcount for the amount of buildings in each areas/towns and use locations for each town area,

player bring 1 barrack to town 1 and suffered 0 deaths of barracks

set death for player barracks to 1 and add 100 minerals

in case players can lose amount of buildings that they farm make trigger for that too

player brings 1 barrack to town 1 and suffered 2 deaths of barracks

set deaths player barracks to 1.

using alot of triggers wont cause lag at all at least not such amount were talking at most 2 or 3k triggers here im sure and that wont cause any lag at all, as long as youre using deathcount so the triggers only fire once per cycle.

as nude says the amount of locations are limited tho, but assuming you dont have that much towns, one big shared location for each town will do.

As I understand it the player can have any number of 'Barracks' at various locations. Your trigger would only fire for the first. Unless I misunderstood because your format is very haphazard. Thus I encourage you to use the


And you seem to have overlooked the part where he wants to display a unique text for every building.

its simple whether he wants a total amount of barracks on the whole map or if he wants in small town area, or even both:

just more complex triggers if counting both total and small areas at the same time,

player 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 the amount of players in the map,,,,

condition(
current player suffered excaktly 0 death of barracks
current player brings barracks to location all map = 1
current player brings barracks to location area town1 =1
current player brings barracks to location area town2 =0
current player brings barracks to location area town3 =0
etc etc for the amount of towns
)

if more towns than 10 you need copy trigger and use the location area town 11 = 0 but should stil be possible even without the use of that much triggers copy paste triggers,,,,

action
set deaths current player barrack 1
display text msg current player ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, text,,,,,,,
set minerals current player add 100
preserve trigger

doin this should be fairly easy even with lots of towns by copying triggers,, as you can do for all the players that you need,, if 30 types of buildings for players to own should max use up around 200 triggers at max if you need the option to set the amount lower aswell,, if players can only increase amount than its not that much triggers.

on the internet you can find text copy and use that when you make the set lower death count of barracks and use for different kinds of buildings this will help in the time needed to make it, and compile it into text editor in scm draft, since the triggers will nearly be same only difference is the names on the buildings and the text displayed

I did more than 200000 triggers in couple days by using text editor with copy paste,, map doesnt lag even with that much triggers and with an active location grid constantly following each unit to increase the ai functions of each unit pretty crazy achivement on controlling each unit actually takes alot of triggers and an active location grid but it actually was an succes, if anyone intrested my trigger system is free to use.

an excample of the functions i did i saved in a test map,, where normal 10 zealots owned by computer would own 5 dragoons owned by computer easy,, but with the system i created, i made the computer use micro mirroing how the best sc players play by moving back the dragoons when zealots or other melee units come close to the dragoon. resulting the 10 zealots attacking the 5 dragoons, the 5 dragoons also owned by computer shots one time at the zealots and moves back shots the zealots again and moves back again until the zealots killed, its impossible to make the dragoons suffer 0 dmg since 10 zealots with speed coming in the dragoons is alot but the difference is big, and the test map shows how 1 dragoon is surviing when all the zealots killed. it looks precisely like an A+ human player with high apm would use dragoons vs zealots. looks cool kinda, donno if others did this too

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jan 14 2025, 12:28 pm by GGmano.

I still don't get it. What if he has a barracks in town1 and town2 each?


Or even what the death counter is supposed to do? It adds the complexity to prevent the triggers breaking when a barracks gets destroyed but what do you gain? (compared to just check barracks at location)

if he has 2 barracks total the death count will be 2 but it adds minerals and text for bring barrack to location town 1 when this one is made and minerals and text for when barrack in town2 is made,

checking barracks at local locations is far the most easy way. but with preserve trigger without deathcount it will fire again and again,,, if you make trigger with condition bring 1 barrack to location town 1 with preserve than you need some background variable to measure it in the background here is where deathcount come in, or a burrowed unit, but using burrowed units could be issued and takes same amount of trigger to create such system,, hence death count sure is best option,

if theres a change in mineral output on the farming etc than you need detect global amount of buildings aswell,

you need alot of triggers for detecting global amount as well as local amount, while only detecting local takes way less as youre mentioning, the amount of triggers doesnt matter tho as it wont be that much triggers even with alot of towns and detecting global.

Your example looks innocent with 2 possible locations, but have you realized how quickly the number of triggers get out of hand with more? Why would you ever check for 0 Barracks at a town?

Even in your most basic example you need a third trigger: When there's only a Barracks at town2.

With 3 towns you already need 7 triggers: (each line is a trigger, each row a condition)

Code

Locations   town1 town2 town3
Barracks     0     0     1
Barracks     0     1     0
Barracks     0     1     1
Barracks     1     0     0
Barracks     1     0     1
Barracks     1     1     0
Barracks     1     1     1

... and with 4 towns 15 triggers; always x^2 - 1

When you can just do the cases you actually need: (- means no condition)

Code

Locations   town1 town2 town3
Barracks     1     -     -
Barracks     -     1     -
Barracks     -     -     1

only check for 1 Barracks per trigger. Why would you make that more complicated?

And for the death counter, I see it's your timer(?) to keep track of when to pay out the income. Yes you can do it that way, but way too bug prone and complicated. One basic lesson is to never use units that can die in your map as death counter variables. Use something that can't exist like cantina.

Sorry, I respect you as a mapper, but that's just plain bad advice here.

well i think we misunderstood here apparantly, i read you said something about checking for the total numbers of barracks,,, which was what i showed an option for. but that said prolly not needed at all most likely he would just as you also point out only need to check each towns for the amount, which should be fairly simple as i stated in my first reply if you care to relook at my first answer again,

for the matter of deathcount its sure the only right way to do it. donno how you dont see it rather that putting up something which makes sense, using a unit that can be affected as a deathcounter in the map is a no go, which is a give it self matter, or a total other question so to speak, what and how to use deathcounter systems could the question be, if you want me to give advises about use of deathcounters.

to avoid units/buildings affected you can actually add a computer player for the map and use that as deathcounter so all types of units and buildings will be availiable too, or just as you state it just use deathcounts of variables thats not in use.

well its been awhile since i did work on mapping, he would need use deathcounters for each location too, sorry for that nude

but deathcounter is sure the right way

excample would be to use a specific deathcount for barracks in each town, using an extra cpu player slot here prolly needed, dependant on the map,, prolly be better if we had more details of how the map is gonna be, number of players etc

prolly the easiest way is just using deathcount for total amount of barracks to pay out the eco, using whole map location to increase the deathcount or decrease it, while adding text without preserve with bring location for each town,, this simplifies it all alot.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 15 2025, 7:36 pm by GGmano.

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Several misunderstandings, it seems.




Wouldn't know where. In fact OP states he does know how to do it for multiple buildings but can't use aggregation in his case because of the unique text output.




Which is exactly what he doesn't want. He wants to uniquely identify each town.
Which is why this won't do:

Because if there's 2 Barracks at town 1, how do you tell which one it is? You need the 1:1 correlation of the location with display text, OR expand it in some unique way (UV suggested burrowed Zerg).



Agree 100%. Just do not agree with your implementation.

1. As I've explained you should not pick DC of 'Barracks' but something else, like 'Cantina'.

With that you do a cookie cutter DC timer system, which is probably not that different from what you're doing. Done, basically.

2. But you make it look like it's a special solution tailored to his problem. So I'm wondering why you're even bothering to put up a solution for some cookie-cutter timer, when sethmachine never asked about it, and nobody discussed it, and (because it's so cookie-cutter) everyone just expects him to know how to do it and in addition offer a flawed implementation for no apparent reason. That's why I was asking what your solution brings to the table that standard DC timer systems wouldn't.

Didn't mean that 2nd point to come across as rude, just a lot of emphasis on my thought process why I had difficulty accepting your dc.




That works too.




np, that's my main point from above.




Easiest yes, but as stated above, not feasible because of the unique text output per town.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 16 2025, 6:07 am by NudeRaider.

a location grid could be an option maybe, scanning each town for buildings,

not sure why he would need to text each buildings in town specific other, like the reason for hes system doesnt add up, if the text from 1 barrack in town would be "youre farming 1 barrack in town 1" and the text for owning 2 barracks in town 1 would be "youre farming 2 barracks in town1" that makes sense,

seems like hes goal is to text some special name for each of the barracks in each town, you can also change the text when give players text from second and third in the text output trigger.

if what he needs is to detect the excakt placement of the barrack which could be what he needs i dont know, like owning a barrack up the right corner is different from owning a barrack left corner in the town, than he would need a location grid.

im pretty sure i just dont see why he would need a specific text for each barrack other than the difference on the amount, understanding the background for hes goal matters here at least to help him solve it, if its a teori problem, "in theori i want this" than it prolly can be solved in some complicated way (you have received 100 minerals from farting/you have received 100 minerals from having sex/you have received 100 minerals from the efford) in theori he could use different types of buildings, in theori i imagine big towns with all the different buildings avaliable and lots of buildings the same kind in each town (not sure thats possible on a sc map tho maybe im wrong here) (in theori he could just use different types of buildings for each specifix text output=no?) the burrow ling at the buildings only works if the buildings are given another player or with the use of a location grid. assuming he dont want the buildings to be given a cpu player for the next barrack to be detected.

a location grid can scan/detect specific locations on map.

if structures are preplaced a specific location could be on the specific buildings, like in town one a specific location is above these buildings which are all uniqwe ( not 2 barracks in a spceifix location) but 1 barrack 1 suply depot 1 factory etc is ok for a specific location) and again using a variable/switch (deathcount) to detect whether a barrack is owned in that specific location would be right

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jan 16 2025, 8:45 am by GGmano.

Because lets say in town1 you have Farthing and York, then if the player brings 2 Barracks there you can 2x display text, once for Farthing, once for York, but if the player only owns Farthing and York is neutral, with your triggers you can't tell if you need to display the text for York or Farthing.




Wouldn't go as far as saying need but yeah I can see it working.




If you need background nobody's stopping you asking him for it, on the other hand I'd say we don't need to know and still can give pretty useful answers.




No, it sounds a lot like a real problem, something he would actually like to implement.




True for pretty much anything, but why? Easy solutions were already suggested.




not what he wants




Many games have the same icon/image for any city on the map. I don't see why we should question his artistic vision.




yes:

GGmano, not going to fully reply, but I'll just say that I agree with Nude here. I don't think the solutions you're suggesting are very clear or particularly helpful for this circumstance. I really think you should consider putting your native language into Google Translate and using it to translate to english as yours is very hard to understand. I get frustrated reading and re-reading your responses trying to understand what you are saying to the point where I don't even bother most of the time. It also seems like you're not putting much effort into the suggested solutions. Like the triggers you listed are so incomplete that they don't wouldn't serve the purpose of seth's request at all. It seems like you're just throwing lazy solutions that don't accomplish the intended goal and I don't see the point of posting like that. SEN isn't that active anymore, but it's always been a hub for elite mapmaking with care and thoughtfulness put into posts, and it's disappointing to see these half-baked answers being thrown around.



To get back on topic, I took a minute to briefly look at the triggers for the Hazard Zone map you mentioned. It has 4,141 Bring conditions and one thing I noticed that was noteworthy is that the Bring condition was almost always the top one in the conditions list for triggers. Assuming that is what is causing the issue, the trigger lag could be significantly reduced simply by reordering the conditions to put cheap checks like deaths and switches at the top of the conditions, which is what I would suggest you do in your circumstance. For example, if you had a death counter to control the income cycle, then that death check could be at the top of the conditions for all income triggers which would effectively prevent the bring conditions being checked for however many of those triggers you have on all trigger cycles except the specific income cycles which would be a massive reduction.

Edit: Also worth mentioning, the trigger lag you saw in full-house games may have had very little to do with the map. It's important to remember that a lot of SC players have either bad computers, bad internet connections, or both. Since the game is so accessible and has lower system requirements due to its age, it invites a lot of people to play that otherwise wouldn't be able to play PC games. You can't always fix the lag in these circumstances because it's just on their end and doesn't really have anything to do with the map.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 16 2025, 5:59 pm by Ultraviolet.

okey, ill just add a simple precise answer to what im sure about. that the amount of triggers wont lag if they arent all active in each cycle, '

if anyone could find out the amount of active triggers before lag occours that could increase this post alot. a simple test could prolly solve it with creating and removing units at many locations at the same time, i know alot of triggers activated at the same cycle cause lag, when lag occours also depends on each players connection to the net, im sure.

so to be clear i think lag can occour after a mediate amount prolly 100-200 active triggers.

the system sethmeth wanna do shouldnt be affected by that.

running alot of variables deathcount doesnt add lag, where creating units/buildings on map does.

triggers that uses visual actions on map, triggers that affect stuff on map, has influence on map lag

triggers that only uses non visual actions doesnt, (moving a location, setting a deathcount doesnt affect map lag).

if you search and learn how to make a location grid that uses background data instead of affecting players visuals.

so mind knowing when you make triggers to diffenciate between the triggers that demands players internet speed and when making triggers thats has no influence on players internet speed could be a good point for learning mapping, id say

this is to my knowledge, sorry for any other inconvinience.

to state my point of view, in a forum like this dont put down people who wanna share knowledge even if its misunderstood, communication is development. it should be pretty clear im putting an effort to share and help mappers, when i use my time here

quote ultraviolet
An alternative with its own complications/issues could be to make a set sequence of specific burrowed units next to each town location

i had that in mind too, if making a spot with different kind of units on an un used area of map, like used in poker defence maps. so each building has a specific detection unit placed somewhere on map not used by the players, and that wouldnt really cause map lag if the units arent affected each cycle.

ohh and quoting nude "that not what he wants"

sometimes it could be better to solve issues using other methods, was all i was stating, its fully up to sethmachine which method he wanna use. but surely sc mapping and gaming has its limitations where it sometimes are needed to find other methods to reach goals for a map that you want, thats my experience beeing mapper.

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on Jan 17 2025, 7:02 am by GGmano.

sometimes. Not this time. The assignment is clear, solutions exist. It's insulting to imply that he didn't think of that yet.