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[05:00 pm]  Oh_Man -- its not like there's some gauranteed way of 'do this to quit smoking', etc, failure rates are still high and there doesnt seem to be a silver bullet, with different things working for different people[04:59 pm] Oh_Man -- In Search of the Miraculous by P.D. Ouspensky. - I gotta read this ultra, it sounds interesting[04:17 pm]  Vrael -- well after some quick merriam-webstering (suck it Oxford) I think I used it right but if anyone thinks I used it wrong thats not my hill to die on[04:10 pm] Oh_Man -- u are nesting the free will debate into a false dichotomy of a gods existence that is a fallacy[04:07 pm] Oh_Man -- which is equiavelent to me saying okay i agree to waste my time while i listen to ur arguments derived from a premise i already know to be unsound, but I get wat u r saying in that from ur point of view the premise is considered correct[04:06 pm] Oh_Man -- but in order to even have that discussion, u have to first prove the existence of god, or else i have to just agree to say "okay, lets assume for the moment ur god exists, continue"[04:03 pm] Vrael -- or perhaps that's an integral part of it, and free will is only possible in a universe which includes god?[04:02 pm] Oh_Man -- TLDR, any topic where you bring god into it, atheists will immediately challenge that premise, and the convo will devolve into a 'existence of god' debate which is a completely separate debate to free will and something or nothing topics[03:52 pm] Ultraviolet -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: now i just gotta figure out what is the accurate belief to the reality of getting rich... I think I can, I think I can![03:48 pm] Oh_Man -- now i just gotta figure out what is the accurate belief to the reality of getting rich...[03:47 pm] Oh_Man -- like ppl who have mistaken beliefs about aerodynamics are going to crash and die in their poorly made plane, and those whose beliefs accurately mirror the reality of aerodynamics will survive and reach their destination[03:46 pm] Oh_Man -- i think arguments/beliefs about the reality of the world that accurately reflect the reality of the world are just inherently self-perpetuating, because they give those that have them an advantage over those who dont[03:43 pm] Oh_Man -- thoughts are not who we are, they are just pertubations that arise and then disappear in our consciousness[03:43 pm] Oh_Man -- exactly, but i am excited to hopefully show yall the arguments so u can understand the truth of this reality for urselves, which if u do a bit of meditation u can realise this for urself[03:43 pm] Ultraviolet -- VraelVrael shouted: im awfully tired of me it'd be great to discover that I'm an illusion and not actually responsible for myself or my actions, that would be quite a load off Ultimately I don't have any proof (don't yell at me that's why I'm in the shoutbox!), but I've come to believe we are all simply temporarily materialized extensions of immortal souls, and once we die, we go back to the aether and choose when/how/if we want to do it all again. I see life almost like an extremely intricate VR game for souls. So I dunno about not being responsible for yourself or your actions, but I would concur that you are a temporary illusion if that brings you any relief  [03:42 pm] Vrael -- its true, you're not being dogmatic because you're not attempting to convince anyone else to follow what you believe[03:42 pm] Oh_Man -- its like, is understanding 1+1 = 2 a dogma? or do u just have supreme confidence that u understand that truth of the world? thats where i feel i'm at with the free will topic these days[03:42 pm] Oh_Man -- VraelVrael shouted: Oh_Man lets see, where else have I heard people who unilaterally decide they know the ultimate truth and cannot be questions and aren't open to outside viewpoints... I *know* this sounds familiar, I just know it! i dont think i'm being dogmatic. i've just reached the stage where i now comprehend this so fully i feel extremely confident in my belief[03:37 pm] Oh_Man -- dangerous criminal u want them to obviousl stop being that, so u try to rehabilitate, if they cant be rheaibliated, u imprison, and if u meet them in the street, u wuld avoid / call cops, etc.[03:37 pm] Oh_Man -- the concept of responsibility still exists, u just have to look at it differently now. think of every dangerous criminal like a force of nature, like a flood. u dont hold the flood responsible for the damage its done to u, u just work to prevent the flood, avoid the flood, mitigate th damage, etc.[03:34 pm] Vrael -- though I suppose that doesn't get me out of the whole "consequences" and "external forces" bit does it[03:33 pm] Vrael -- im awfully tired of me it'd be great to discover that I'm an illusion and not actually responsible for myself or my actions, that would be quite a load off[03:33 pm] Oh_Man -- well i touched brierfly on the reasons for my beliefs being the biblical scholarship re christian god and psychology re soul, but i didnt deep dive either point coz i considered them completely derailing the topic at hand[03:30 pm] Vrael -- its right there in Rule #2 "Merely asserting you are right without reasoning or evidence is disruptive."[03:29 pm] Vrael -- the point here though is while you're free to simply ignore those responses you consider distraction/unworthy/stupid, if you're going to respond to them you ought to do it fairly[03:29 pm] Ultraviolet -- VraelVrael shouted: Oh_Man lets see, where else have I heard people who unilaterally decide they know the ultimate truth and cannot be questions and aren't open to outside viewpoints... I *know* this sounds familiar, I just know it! More like where haven't I heard those people lately?  [03:27 pm] Vrael -- Oh_ManOh_Man shouted: even if i entertain the soul argument 'ok lets hear ur arguments about the soul' i already know it doesnt get u free will for the same reasons. even if i just accept 100% that the soul is real the argument against free will is actually identical lets see, where else have I heard people who unilaterally decide they know the ultimate truth and cannot be questions and aren't open to outside viewpoints... I *know* this sounds familiar, I just know it![03:24 pm] Ultraviolet -- VraelVrael shouted: you are of course, free not to talk to whomever you like in SD, but I wanted you to know that if I was still the mod (which I'm not) that nonsense simply wouldnt fly I'm just gonna post threads in Lite Discussion from now on   I don't think I meet the standards for SD[03:11 pm] Oh_Man -- even if i entertain the soul argument 'ok lets hear ur arguments about the soul' i already know it doesnt get u free will for the same reasons. even if i just accept 100% that the soul is real the argument against free will is actually identical[03:09 pm] Oh_Man -- i consider them distractions to the actual conversation. like ppl who believe in god think god touches every aspect of reality and thus they try to insert it into every conversation, to an theist this is just a complete derailing of the topic[03:08 pm] Vrael -- you are of course, free not to talk to whomever you like in SD, but I wanted you to know that if I was still the mod (which I'm not) that nonsense simply wouldnt fly [03:07 pm] Oh_Man -- yeah, like how biologists usually dont want to waste their time talking to creationists, they already know the theory of evolution is the correct interpretation and so those conversations are just wastes of time[03:05 pm] Vrael -- like perhaps you mean to say you're not interested in discussion on that particular point because of what you know[03:03 pm] Vrael -- Oh_man you know you can't just say "You think X but I know it to not be true" in SD right?[02:05 pm] Oh_Man -- what piteous series of experential and genetic factors led to this outcome, i wonder?[01:43 pm] Oh_Man -- who is in the mood to discover the illusion of self? check the serious discussion threads if u are yall[01:41 pm] Vrael -- besides, everyone knows the north pole is a portal to Santa Claus's dimension, dont need no stinkin mathematics for that[2024-9-19. : 9:46 pm] NudeRaider -- VraelVrael shouted: oh yeah? well why don't you explain what happens inside the singularity of a black hole if you love all physics equally so much mathematical it could be a time portal or a portal to other dimensions. I suggest you go check if this is true. [2024-9-19. : 5:20 pm] Vrael -- oh yeah? well why don't you explain what happens inside the singularity of a black hole if you love all physics equally so much[2024-9-19. : 4:07 pm] NudeRaider -- VraelVrael shouted: no no no physics is too simple I don't discriminate I love all physics equally  |
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