Can EPDs be used to write data? I know Blizzard patched EUDs to prevent writing, but did they miss EPDs?
None.
Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 UMS Theory and Ideas > Topic: [EUD] A Mapmaker's Guide for Creating EUDs
This is amazing and I'm donating minerals to you for it, if I can remember how that works. (It's been a while. I usually only check the site-centric section of the forums.)
Can EPDs be used to write data? I know Blizzard patched EUDs to prevent writing, but did they miss EPDs?
Can EPDs be used to write data? I know Blizzard patched EUDs to prevent writing, but did they miss EPDs?
An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death
No, EPD actions were disabled I believe one patch after EUD actions. Heinermann may have more details on this:
SCMD2 also doesn't support writing EPD actions, sadly.
And thanks for the donation.
Quote from 
Heinermann
HeinermannAfter Extended Unit Deaths were patched, I tried extended alliance status, which worked, and caused yet another patch. Since then, extended switch states and other methods I've tried testing have resulted in failure.
SCMD2 also doesn't support writing EPD actions, sadly.
And thanks for the donation.
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As I remember it, EPD Actions never existed.. EUDs were never able to write above player 8.
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Only just noticed this thread today. Someone should have written this guide a long time ago, it's incredibly useful.
Couple of comments:
1. The example in section 3 would have been better if it were doing something that you can't do with regular conditions and if it were an EUD that lots of people might actually use, like unit HP detection. I guess that would start muddying up later topics like 5 and 6 though in having to introduce their concepts earlier. I guess an appendix with a worked example for HP detection that ties it all together would be useful?
2. The PC vs mac section says to set a switch when a player is PC. Really you should be setting a DC here, because you haven't preserved the trigger and so after the first trigger run the switch will be left with whatever value the last player had.
Couple of comments:
1. The example in section 3 would have been better if it were doing something that you can't do with regular conditions and if it were an EUD that lots of people might actually use, like unit HP detection. I guess that would start muddying up later topics like 5 and 6 though in having to introduce their concepts earlier. I guess an appendix with a worked example for HP detection that ties it all together would be useful?
2. The PC vs mac section says to set a switch when a player is PC. Really you should be setting a DC here, because you haven't preserved the trigger and so after the first trigger run the switch will be left with whatever value the last player had.
None.
An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death
Quote from 
Lanthanide
Lanthanide1. The example in section 3 would have been better if it were doing something that you can't do with regular conditions and if it were an EUD that lots of people might actually use, like unit HP detection. I guess that would start muddying up later topics like 5 and 6 though in having to introduce their concepts earlier. I guess an appendix with a worked example for HP detection that ties it all together would be useful?
Quote from Lanthanide
Lanthanide2. The PC vs mac section says to set a switch when a player is PC. Really you should be setting a DC here, because you haven't preserved the trigger and so after the first trigger run the switch will be left with whatever value the last player had.
Under normal circumstances, you'd be absolutely correct, but this goes into the Local vs Global synchronization discussion I mention. The game is technically in different states for PCs and Macs: one that thinks the switch is set (PC), and one that thinks the switch is clear (Mac).
If you're more comfortable using a death counter, by all means go ahead; it will have the same result, and may seem more obvious than the switch solution. Keep in mind, however, that in a Mac player's game, EVERYONE has 0 deaths of that unit, and for the PC player's game, EVERYONE has a death for that unit.
If you think it would be beneficial for the tutorial to change the example in section 3 to something more practical, I'd be happy to rewrite that part (I don't want to do HP detection because that involves indexes and offsets). However, I do not believe section 5 to be in error. Thank you for the criticism, though.
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Section 3 doesn't need to be changed, it is good the way it is for all the reasons you list. I just think something like HP detection as a worked example / something people could pick up and use themselves with some small tweaks would be handy. Would be best done as an appendix.
As for the switch thing, you are entirely correct, now that you've explained it. I think your explanation here would actually be useful to put into the post. I simply assumed that switches were global values shared by all players, and normally they are, but because we're performing the switch action on a per-player basis through EPD conditions, it ends up behaving more like a DC than a switch normally does.
Thinking more about this switch situation, couldn't you effectively end up with per-player switches using this mechanism? Player 1 has switch 1 set, and as far as P1 is concerned so does P2-8, but P2-8 don't think anyone has that switch set.
I guess if you actually then had triggers that affected global data that relied on that information, you'd de-sync, though.
Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 25 2011, 3:03 am by Lanthanide.
As for the switch thing, you are entirely correct, now that you've explained it. I think your explanation here would actually be useful to put into the post. I simply assumed that switches were global values shared by all players, and normally they are, but because we're performing the switch action on a per-player basis through EPD conditions, it ends up behaving more like a DC than a switch normally does.
Thinking more about this switch situation, couldn't you effectively end up with per-player switches using this mechanism? Player 1 has switch 1 set, and as far as P1 is concerned so does P2-8, but P2-8 don't think anyone has that switch set.
I guess if you actually then had triggers that affected global data that relied on that information, you'd de-sync, though.
Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 25 2011, 3:03 am by Lanthanide.
None.
Double-posting, but this new post is different from my above.
With the scoreboard displays, you can enable or disable computer players, but that's it. Is there any way to disable certain players from being displayed on the scoreboard for certain human players?
Eg P1 can see P2 and P3 on the scoreboard, but not P5-7 who are human players. And vice versa.
Maybe there's a local data structure somewhere that is a table of the players to display on the score board, like this:
P1: display/not display
P2: display/not display
..
P8: display/not display
And players who are absent, or players who are CPU with "disable CPU players" has been set will be set to not display and everyone else will be display. It would be really handy if a EUD could be used to turn individual players off.
With the scoreboard displays, you can enable or disable computer players, but that's it. Is there any way to disable certain players from being displayed on the scoreboard for certain human players?
Eg P1 can see P2 and P3 on the scoreboard, but not P5-7 who are human players. And vice versa.
Maybe there's a local data structure somewhere that is a table of the players to display on the score board, like this:
P1: display/not display
P2: display/not display
..
P8: display/not display
And players who are absent, or players who are CPU with "disable CPU players" has been set will be set to not display and everyone else will be display. It would be really handy if a EUD could be used to turn individual players off.
None.
An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death
(This would require EUD Actions to be enabled.)
As far as I see from the EUDDB, Leaderboard Computer Players Enabled is just a toggle between on and off. Perhaps the Active Player Structures can be changed to trick the game into thinking a player is a different type (+0x08 = Type (1 byte; 0 = inactive, 1 = computer, 2 = human, 7 = neutral)), so you can disable all computers and any player you would want.
But, according to Farty's tests on local/global actions, the leaderboard is surprisingly picky regarding showing/hiding computer players. Manipulating this action from a local EUD trigger will cause desynchronization. This would mean that even if the above method works, you would require all players to have the same leaderboard display (although changing player structure data would probably have to be universal as well).
And in response to your previous post, I'll likely add an appendix for HP detection when I have the time, as it is quite popular and would be a useful reference.
As far as I see from the EUDDB, Leaderboard Computer Players Enabled is just a toggle between on and off. Perhaps the Active Player Structures can be changed to trick the game into thinking a player is a different type (+0x08 = Type (1 byte; 0 = inactive, 1 = computer, 2 = human, 7 = neutral)), so you can disable all computers and any player you would want.
But, according to Farty's tests on local/global actions, the leaderboard is surprisingly picky regarding showing/hiding computer players. Manipulating this action from a local EUD trigger will cause desynchronization. This would mean that even if the above method works, you would require all players to have the same leaderboard display (although changing player structure data would probably have to be universal as well).
And in response to your previous post, I'll likely add an appendix for HP detection when I have the time, as it is quite popular and would be a useful reference.
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That's a pity.
In my case, I want to have only computers displayed on the leader board and hide all the human players. So I'd have to set the human players to be CPU and the CPU players to be human and then Disable CPU players. Tricky and error-prone, I suspect.
Actually I don't think it's even touched on in your posts at all: are EUD actions *always* illegal? You talk about synchronisation and global/local data, which is relevant for EUD conditions (and hence regular trigger actions as a result of the conditions) but never actually state whether EUD actions themselves are legal.
In my case, I want to have only computers displayed on the leader board and hide all the human players. So I'd have to set the human players to be CPU and the CPU players to be human and then Disable CPU players. Tricky and error-prone, I suspect.
Actually I don't think it's even touched on in your posts at all: are EUD actions *always* illegal? You talk about synchronisation and global/local data, which is relevant for EUD conditions (and hence regular trigger actions as a result of the conditions) but never actually state whether EUD actions themselves are legal.
None.
An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death
Yeah, I really didn't cover anything on EUD actions for this tutorial.
Ignoring the special case of Mac vs PC, EUD actions are all safe, just like all regular actions are safe. Again, the only synchronization issue you would have is if you were using a local EUD condition in conjunction with a global EUD action.
Also, obviously every single player must have EUD actions enabled; if some players do not have them enabled, then it's a classic desynchronization issue: the players that have EUD actions enabled will have the action run, and those that do not have the EUD actions enabled will not have the action run, thus creating two game states. Now, if the EUD action running is only for a local address, the physical game state will not change, and these players will remain in the game. However, if the EUD action running is for a global address, the physical game state changes, causing the two groups of players to drop from each other.
If you go back to Section 5, you can interchange "Actions" with "EUD Actions" and the same general rules apply.
Ignoring the special case of Mac vs PC, EUD actions are all safe, just like all regular actions are safe. Again, the only synchronization issue you would have is if you were using a local EUD condition in conjunction with a global EUD action.
Also, obviously every single player must have EUD actions enabled; if some players do not have them enabled, then it's a classic desynchronization issue: the players that have EUD actions enabled will have the action run, and those that do not have the EUD actions enabled will not have the action run, thus creating two game states. Now, if the EUD action running is only for a local address, the physical game state will not change, and these players will remain in the game. However, if the EUD action running is for a global address, the physical game state changes, causing the two groups of players to drop from each other.
If you go back to Section 5, you can interchange "Actions" with "EUD Actions" and the same general rules apply.
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Appendix A: Unit HP
You may take this as the base map for this appendix: EUD_HP_Test_Map.scx.
This will explain how to perform HP detection. For simplicity's sake, let's take the address from the http://www.staredit.net/topic/10471/ thread instead of finding it manually. On the EUD HP Test Map, we are interested in detecting the HP of the Marine.
You can see by checking the Marine in the unit properties window (right-click -> Properties) that it is at Index 0. This means we don't need to do any calculations for the EPD value, because the http://www.staredit.net/topic/10471/ already displays the values for the unit at Index 0:
Code
0x59CCB0 19027 HEALTH POINTS: AtLeast 256*a, AtMost 256*a + 255
From this, we can see that the EPD value we need is 19027. Now the only thing we need to do is calculate the correct HP value for the unit. As you can see from the http://www.staredit.net/topic/10471/ entry, you have to manipulate the value you want for the EUD to work correctly. If you wanted to check for 1 HP, you would check the range between (256*1) and ((256*1)+255). These calculations are explained in more depth in Section 4.2 and Section 6.2.
Here are the conversions for 0 to 100 HP:
HP Values
If you wanted to check for a range, say between 10 and 20 HP, just take the "At Least" value from 10 (2560) and the "At Most" value from 20 (5375). Between 2560 and 5375 is the HP range of 10 to 20.
In the EUD HP Test Map, the Marine has HP between 1 and 100. If you wanted to write an EUD to do something whenever the Marine's HP is between 90 and 95 (23040 to 24575), the conditions would look like this:
Memory at Death Table + 19027 is at least 23040
Memory at Death Table + 19027 is at most 24575
If you wanted to detect a different unit's HP between 90 and 95, the only thing you'd need to do to the above conditions is change the EPD value (19027) to the correct value based on the unit's Index ID.
Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jun 11 2016, 9:49 pm by Roy.
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Awesome! Thanks Roy =D
None.
How many players on battle.net really use macs any more?
Also, looking at this: http://farty1billion.dyndns.org/EUDDB/?pg=entry&addr=0x0058D2B0&ver=1.16.1&plat=win
Does this mean it would be possible to create triggers that fired (with regular actions etc) only when players had researched certain upgrades? Is this data global, or will it desync other players if I try to do actions if Current Player has researched some upgrade?
Also, looking at this: http://farty1billion.dyndns.org/EUDDB/?pg=entry&addr=0x0058D2B0&ver=1.16.1&plat=win
Does this mean it would be possible to create triggers that fired (with regular actions etc) only when players had researched certain upgrades? Is this data global, or will it desync other players if I try to do actions if Current Player has researched some upgrade?
None.
Quote from Lanthanide
LanthanideHow many players on battle.net really use macs any more?
There are definitely at least a few of us left, counting myself...
Personally, I have Windows emulation capability (though I find Windows rather unpleasant and thus strongly prefer to play using the Mac version of Starcraft), but the other Mac users that I know of don't, and are thus unable to play current EUD maps.
None.
An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death
Quote from Lanthanide
LanthanideDoes this mean it would be possible to create triggers that fired (with regular actions etc) only when players had researched certain upgrades? Is this data global, or will it desync other players if I try to do actions if Current Player has researched some upgrade?
Quote from Roy
RoyIt would require for most upgrades that you also know the status of at least one other upgrade. The worst case scenario (1/4 of the upgrades) is that you have to specify three other upgrade statuses to get an accurate value. The best case scenario (also 1/4 of the upgrades) is that you don't need to specify any other upgrade status than the one you are interested in.
If your map has strict control over upgrades and doesn't utilize many of them, then you can fill the other addresses with their default values since those will never change. For example, if you wanted to check Player 1's Terran Infantry Armor and knew that Terran Vehicle Plating, Terran Ship Plating and Zerg Carapace for that player are always going to be zero, it would be safe to only write EPDs checking the address 58D2B0 for X, where X is the upgrade number for Terran Infantry Armor.
(The list of upgrades can be found here.)
Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 1 2012, 1:06 am by Roy.
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It's a little easier to for upgrades test because each byte will only have a value of 1 (except for the few that have multiple upgrades), or perhaps will always be 1 or will always be 0. When heinermann first posted about these, he listed them.
first byte:
1, 257, 65537, 65793, 16777217, 16777473, 16842753, 16843009
2nd byte:
256, 257, 65792, 65793, 16777472, 16777473, 16843008, 16843009
3rd byte:
65536, 65537, 65792, 65793, 16842752, 16842753, 16843008, 16843009
4th byte:
16777216, 16777217, 16777472, 16777473, 16842752, 16842753, 16843008, 16843009
And there is a lot overlap, so you can test for each unique value and set appropriate switches for each upgrade (disregarding any that you don't care for).
(clearing all of the switches beforehand, or assuming that any not set are cleared in the same block):
1: Set 1
256: Set 2
257: Set 1, Set 2
65536: Set 3
65537: Set 1, Set 3
65792: Set 2, Set 3
65793: Set 1, Set 2, Set 3
16777216: Set 4
16777217: Set 1, Set 4
16777472: Set 2, Set 4
16777473: Set 1, Set 2, Set 4
16842752: Set 3, Set 4
16842753: Set 1, Set 3, Set 4
16843008: Set 2, Set 3, Set 4
16843009: Set 1, Set 2, Set 3, Set 4
first byte:
1, 257, 65537, 65793, 16777217, 16777473, 16842753, 16843009
2nd byte:
256, 257, 65792, 65793, 16777472, 16777473, 16843008, 16843009
3rd byte:
65536, 65537, 65792, 65793, 16842752, 16842753, 16843008, 16843009
4th byte:
16777216, 16777217, 16777472, 16777473, 16842752, 16842753, 16843008, 16843009
And there is a lot overlap, so you can test for each unique value and set appropriate switches for each upgrade (disregarding any that you don't care for).
(clearing all of the switches beforehand, or assuming that any not set are cleared in the same block):
1: Set 1
256: Set 2
257: Set 1, Set 2
65536: Set 3
65537: Set 1, Set 3
65792: Set 2, Set 3
65793: Set 1, Set 2, Set 3
16777216: Set 4
16777217: Set 1, Set 4
16777472: Set 2, Set 4
16777473: Set 1, Set 2, Set 4
16842752: Set 3, Set 4
16842753: Set 1, Set 3, Set 4
16843008: Set 2, Set 3, Set 4
16843009: Set 1, Set 2, Set 3, Set 4
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Ok, so my next question is can I use EUDs effectively as a "current player" offset? I want triggers to be owned by P1-3 and P5-7, but I don't want to have to write out 6 versions of each trigger to check for a specific upgrade, especially since I'm already going to have to write about 87 triggers to detect all of the different upgrades in the first place.
Also a few weeks ago, maybe a month or so, someone said in the shoutbox that they were going to use their mac computers at university or some-such to get some memory addresses and they were going to start with the upgrade ones. Does anyone know who that person was, and whether they did it or not?
Foxwolf, have you got any inclination to find some of these addresses out for us?
Edit: Also Farty, I think we can condense your table down even further for the number of explicit trigger conditions required:
At least 16777216: Set 4
At least 16842752: Set 3
At least 65536, At Most 65793: Set 3
At least 16777472, At Most 16777473: Set 2
At least 16843008, At Most 16843009: Set 2
At Least 65792, At Most 65793: Set 2
At Least 256, At Most 257: Set 2
Exactly 1: Set 1
Exactly 257: Set 1
Exactly 65537: Set 1
Exactly 65793: Set 1
Exactly 16777217: Set 1
Exactly 16777473: Set 1
Exactly 16842753: Set 1
Exactly 16843009: Set 1
If you don't care what the value of upgrade 1 is, but the player is still allowed to upgrade it (so it's not always 0 or always 1) then this set means you only have 7 conditions to check instead of 15.
Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Oct 15 2011, 10:10 pm by Lanthanide.
Also a few weeks ago, maybe a month or so, someone said in the shoutbox that they were going to use their mac computers at university or some-such to get some memory addresses and they were going to start with the upgrade ones. Does anyone know who that person was, and whether they did it or not?
Foxwolf, have you got any inclination to find some of these addresses out for us?
Edit: Also Farty, I think we can condense your table down even further for the number of explicit trigger conditions required:
At least 16777216: Set 4
At least 16842752: Set 3
At least 65536, At Most 65793: Set 3
At least 16777472, At Most 16777473: Set 2
At least 16843008, At Most 16843009: Set 2
At Least 65792, At Most 65793: Set 2
At Least 256, At Most 257: Set 2
Exactly 1: Set 1
Exactly 257: Set 1
Exactly 65537: Set 1
Exactly 65793: Set 1
Exactly 16777217: Set 1
Exactly 16777473: Set 1
Exactly 16842753: Set 1
Exactly 16843009: Set 1
If you don't care what the value of upgrade 1 is, but the player is still allowed to upgrade it (so it's not always 0 or always 1) then this set means you only have 7 conditions to check instead of 15.
Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Oct 15 2011, 10:10 pm by Lanthanide.
None.
An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death
Quote from Lanthanide
LanthanideOk, so my next question is can I use EUDs effectively as a "current player" offset?
Quote from Lanthanide
LanthanideI want triggers to be owned by P1-3 and P5-7, but I don't want to have to write out 6 versions of each trigger to check for a specific upgrade, especially since I'm already going to have to write about 87 triggers to detect all of the different upgrades in the first place.
Quote from Lanthanide
LanthanideAlso a few weeks ago, maybe a month or so, someone said in the shoutbox that they were going to use their mac computers at university or some-such to get some memory addresses and they were going to start with the upgrade ones. Does anyone know who that person was, and whether they did it or not?
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Thanks Roy. I'll ask jjf if he got anything.
As for writing out for each player - bummer, thought that might be the case. In my map my interest in upgrades is purely so I can move them from P1-3 to P4 and from P5-7 to P8. So instead of checking if P1-3 have the upgrade and then transferring it to P4, I can check if P4 has the upgrade and then choose whether to transfer it from P1-3. So I'll need to write the triggers out for only P4 and P8, which will save me some work.
Edit: Other fun thing I've noticed is that the upgrades blocks aren't evenly divisible by 4. This means the upgrades differ in their long word values for odd and even players for the SC ones, and because the BW ones are 15 bytes instead of 16, they differ for p1-4 and again for p5-8. How annoying. Luckily the tech upgrades are always the same, and for my purposes I'm using P4 and P8 which will share the same values.
Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 15 2011, 11:14 pm by Lanthanide.
As for writing out for each player - bummer, thought that might be the case. In my map my interest in upgrades is purely so I can move them from P1-3 to P4 and from P5-7 to P8. So instead of checking if P1-3 have the upgrade and then transferring it to P4, I can check if P4 has the upgrade and then choose whether to transfer it from P1-3. So I'll need to write the triggers out for only P4 and P8, which will save me some work.
Edit: Other fun thing I've noticed is that the upgrades blocks aren't evenly divisible by 4. This means the upgrades differ in their long word values for odd and even players for the SC ones, and because the BW ones are 15 bytes instead of 16, they differ for p1-4 and again for p5-8. How annoying. Luckily the tech upgrades are always the same, and for my purposes I'm using P4 and P8 which will share the same values.
Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 15 2011, 11:14 pm by Lanthanide.
None.
Cartography Artisan
Quote
Thanks Roy. I'll ask jjf if he got anything.
I'm sure a few people are interested in this line of research, in my little bnet community there are 2 mac users.
The RAM reading software required admin privileges on the newer Mac OSs, so my university plan fell through
Now my #1 plan is through a bnet friend of mine, he said he would learn EUDs, and more importantly he is technically competent (both on windows and Mac, and even knows basic map editing), I gave him the links thread and the old vid. Previously I tried using him among others as guinea pigs to obtain addresses , but it really didn't work out, (I'm working blind, a single mistake snowballs, etc). He's in law school so I can't predict his schedule; if he doesn’t get it done by the end of November I’ll pursue other tracks. Definatly not something i'll give up on.
My priority memories to find are as follows
- Energy (index's 0-5, high hopes for finding a pattern)
- Health (index’s 0-5, high hopes for finding a pattern)
- Keypress (finding all included in an example map I dl'd, potentially very complicated given maximized screens)
- Selection Detection
- Upgrade Levels
- Text Detection (easier than keypress
)I also did a lot of research for existing Mac EUDs, to my misfortune this was all that turned up (2007) http://www.staredit.net/topic/1517/&skin=5
If anyone is interested in taking it on themselves to help, here is the RAM reader for Mac: The Cheat
Also contact me for some prepared maps for finding addresses and for testing them.
Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Oct 16 2011, 4:27 am by jjf28.
TheNitesWhoSay - Clan Aura - github
Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.
Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.
[2026-9-11. : 9:16 am]
NimoStar -- ever wanted to play melee in installation tileset? Now you can https://staredit.net/topic/18929/[2026-9-11. : 2:29 am]
Symmetry -- TFW you google a problem and find the answer in a post you made yourself[2026-9-11. : 1:46 am]
Oh_Man -- How can i change my name here to put [TFE] on the end will thr website let me[2026-9-10. : 6:02 pm]
Zoan -- of course it isn't full understanding. You could ask "is the mechanism by which this counterexample blows up the ONLY mechanism possible for an initial configuration to blow up?"
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