About David being a second coder, he hasn't had a chance to prove himself because you haven't let him. He has, however, shown that he has the skills for it.

A replacement admin should come from the gmod realm, preferably the most active one. Unfortunately, I can't say with full confidence that Ex (the most active one) would be the best suited as other mods have been known to disagree with his moderations. However, giving Ex the power he has now and used to have certainly was a learning experience for him, and he is now a better member/gmod for it. I'm confident the same would happen if DeV were to be given admin rights. If it's clear he should not be in that position, then he will be demoted as Ex was.

If DeV isn't promoted to admin in the near future, he will never be, as I'm afraid SEN will either a) die, b) I will leave (see a), or c) DeV will leave. IRL happens, you know? On top of that, when will he be ready? I was still an idiot at the age of 19, but that's just me.

Of the gmods:
Devlin - I forever thought he was a gmod/used to be one before he was one. If he wants it.
Farty1billion - If he wants it.
JaFF - this impariality is new to me.
Excalibur - Guaranteed change, possibly losing many vets after getting tired of him, but has superb activity.
Merell - This would be the ideal choice, but he's probably ready to retire too/will take too many breaks.

I think with more responsibility you learn faster. Anyone could be a suitable admin as long as they want it (so that they would be active) and have some form of moderation experience.

Really moose's admin job is judgement calls when/if there is a moderation dispute (please correct me/add on if I'm wrong or there's significantly more). Do we really need another moose admin? No. A DeV admin wouldn't make the same decisions as Moose, and more than likely the moderators would take a vote on disputes. DeV essentially IS an admin right now, just without the title/respect that goes along with it. SEN is an oligarchy mixed with some democracy, and will forever be that way. If we lose some of the "rulers" the site will still function, and eventually new leaders will develop.

Sorry to say this, but he seems to be a much better coder than you.

Well, rockz, you are right and payne: he does not really know PHP (talked to him over MSN) so he actually cannot be better. And thanks for putting your trust in someone else, motivates me even more -.-

However, yea I'm sort of an admin. One reason of why I would like to have the globe is, that people can easily PM me for bugs, right now newcomers would not know who to contact, probably moose and IP, but as both are inactive (except for moose, but he's fading out), I would never know.

I do not want to have the globe to show off in any way, neither do I want to be appreciated without a reason, I just want to make newcomers feel like they are welcome and not being ignored if PMing an admin.
You know that this is true and if you don't: I've failed to proof.

EDIT:
After reading DTBK's post: He's right but it's not like I'm not learning/gaining experience even if I'm an admin.
However, when there are so many of you thinking about me like this I actually do not want to be an admin. An admin which does not have the trust (or full support) of the site's veterans? I already can see this failing. However, maybe later.
(I might start repeating and this is probably my last response to this topic. Whether SEN makes me one or not is up to you, however, I said all I can say to this topic.)

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Apr 21 2010, 2:25 pm by DeVouReR.

Obviously David wouldn't be a PHP coder, just jscript, ajax, and css. You would be the main coder, he'd do the other stuff to make your load a little lighter.

Basically everything has been said already but DTBKs post pretty much sums up my opinion. Make him moderator somewhere in the UMS or even Modding section. There's probably more need for moderation than in the Staredit.net Functions section. The Mapping Tools forum for example has only 1 mod (me) currently so we could work together and I could help him make the right calls. We are in regular contact anyway. Well, that is, if he's interested...

Alright so the community admin status apparently is out of the question right now, but what about coder admin? I'm indifferent about that. On the one hand it seems like a deserved reward on the other hand he should gain more experience as a moderator first.

In any case give him a promotion of some sort and if it's only to make him even more motivated (if that's even possible).

Well, the Moose replacement... Bad wording, but nevertheless we need someone that can take over his role before he's gone entirely. Personally I'd like to see JaFF for that position, but I would also be fine with Devlin or Farty1billion. If that person wants the job, that is.

Agreed. He's proven to know a lot about web programming in more than one occasion. And it seems his sense of responsibility and other necessary qualities* aren't lacking either.

*nvm didn't know he can't program PHP.

Just saying, he could not manage to edit a single .php file (only the html parts in it). He made many mistakes (returning fatal errors, not angry about that), I had to fix it, took too long so I decided to implement the template by myself, worked pretty well. Sure I appreciate david's work and I will ask him for help about css/html in the future if he wants, but giving him access is a mistake as he has proven that he can bug the php codes. In addition, his css had some errors I had to fix, plus AJAX is more than just JS, it combines PHP with it, not a language he completly knows.

Regarding the concept of a "coding admin," while I certainly feel Devourer has outperformed IP in coding contributions to the site, I don't necessarily see a need for the chief coder to have the rank of administrator. It is common simply because a large majority of websites are run by their creators, who are by default both the leader and maker. But as far as I can see, at this point in SEN's history someone only needs the globe if they are involved in a chain of command. "Head Coder" could easily be made a labeled Staff position separate from "Administrator" with whatever distinctions necessary.

As to anyone who wants to see me as an admin again, my activity has probably sagged below a recoverable level; the only thing I would be willing to do is keep SEN running through the beginning of SC2 when hopefully a new community would give rise to a suitable replacement for the next generation. But this is something Moose should do, unless he has a need to get out right now.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 21 2010, 8:17 pm by DT_Battlekruser.

I would not mind moderating further forums with the help of NudeRaider.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 21 2010, 2:29 pm by DeVouReR.

I went with no. I, like DTBK (and I'm sure many of you, I didn't read the whole topic), appreciate the work DeVouReR has done, but don't feel he has the maturity to be an administrator. I think he should stay in the position he is in now, and someone else should be considered for community admin. I'd be in favor of any of the current global moderators (even Excalibur) as a new admin, rather than DeVouReR. JaFF would probably be my top pick, due to his activity, maturity, and general smoothness in dealing with situations (I've been moderated by him several times, and I still like him <3)

Quoted for all the people that took this stand, not just nerdy.

He'll never mature if you dont give him the chance. I say let him be admin, since everyone else just sits around all day and does nothing but spam, flame, and continue to act like elites when in reality a new breed should have been born by now.

Honestly, I'm not as involved with the community as other people, so I may not be qualified to even give an opinion on this... But I think that Dev can become more experienced if he gets the chance to gain experience. I vote yes, with the condition that someone else becomes a co-admin. So if we elect two new admins, I'd be fine with Dev being one of them. Of course, that leads to the question: who should be the second? </unhelpful>

Regarding various comments suggesting that I get more involved in the code, I appreciate the support. Yes, I'm good at client-side code. I really do epic fail at PHP, however, and that's a problem. I can certainly help improve existing client-side code and design new code and UIs for new features, but it would still be up to DeVouReR to implement it all.

BTW
Yes, but the JS and PHP areas are relatively distinct. As long as the server gets a properly-formatted request, things work properly. Case in point: I've written my own client-side AJAX framework that is both 100% SEN-compatible and a considerable improvement over SEN's current AJAX-related JS. (I won't explain here, however, as I'd prefer not to derail the topic.)

To clarify: I never wanted to be the only admin on SEN (and noone was saying that I should become the only one).

Maturity isn't gained through adminship, adminship is gained through maturity. You can become mature somewhere else. It's not about experience.

This is neither wrong nor right. You get mature over time but getting responsibilities will make you become mature more faster.

I voted no go, maybe in the future. Not now. This should have never been brought up in the first place, atm. I'd imagine with moose staring a topic like this dev must feel empty handed. Just create a "coder" position or keep him at the dldb manager or w/e he is at. Ta da. No offense but coders don't really seem like the best place to get someone to fill higher powers, unless the head of SEN is looking for benefits like getting the site payed for or something silly like that :3

Although I do think Dev should be given a chance at moderating more things. The only problem with that is that someone is going to have to constantly shadow him to see if he is properly moderating, he might cause more problems then he can fix, and that just more work for everybody but seems like the best way to get Dev to admin mode if the goal is to specifically get Dev to be an admin. As if he is the only choice, which he isn't but I'm just saying.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 23 2010, 12:42 pm by MadZombie.

Honestly? DeVouReR already has a buttload of power, making him an admin wouldn't really change that much, I see making him an admin as a means of giving him access to the necessary power in emergency situations, I don't see him as one to abuse such power, just as he hasn't abused his FTP access, and I don't see any reason to not make him an Admin, he's not going to suddenly go mad with power and start banning left and right, all it really does is allow him to do some of the cleanup work he's had to wait on Admins to do in the past. We need more active admins right now, having JaFF being appointed was a great thing, but we need more than just one active Admin, and DeVouReR has proven his worth already, an administrator does not necessarily have to use their power to moderate the community, there're a lot more practical uses for that power, and I think that DeVouReR would use it well.

Just addressing this, JaFF turned down the position.

I've become a global moderator, Moose sort of asked me to moderate all forums when I asked whether I could moderate the new sc2 forums.
Looking forward for becoming an admin, though

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 26 2010, 9:21 am by DeVouReR.

I'm half and half on that thought. True, you can gain maturity through life, or the pursuit thereof, or even elsewhere; though I will say that you can gain it through adminship as well. I can say it from experience that I know it to be true, and I can probabaly say the same about around here. Most of the mods, you can certanly see a change in attitude, for better or for worse, but a change.

I've never lead a community as grandeour as SEN before (and I can probably doubt I ever will.), however I've learned the ropes of what it takes to be a leader, or a head of something through multiple attempts at my own communities, clans or guilds, and etc.

Long story short, when you do it the first time, you may or may not learn exactly whats needed of you to lead something, but as time goes on with multiple positions, you do in fact learn what is expected of you as time goes on. You learn how difficult it is to lead something. You learn to be cautious, and who to trust. You might even forget how to trust. You learn that being soft is only hurting others, and probabaly your own resolve in the end.

I said no, however. While SEN may not be its former glory, it still has the capacity to be there. SEN is however still a very large community, with a large populace that browses day after day, with new members flocking in because of Starcraft 2 around the corner. If anyone, I'd be comforable with Moose staying for at least the beginning, because shit didn't fall apart.


Edit: I forgot the best part of all. In addition to the third section, I forgot to add a part about your friends. Friendship as a moderator must be non-existant in judicary rulings. You might end up being pretty damned lonely, but you're signing up for it.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 26 2010, 12:01 pm by Darkling.