Not quite. The speaker (map maker) has a higher obligation with their messages (maps) than the listener (player) has in perceiving it (enjoying them).



Bloody analogies.

Bloody post edits.


Alright I'm done for the evening.

Stop assuming maps are meant to be enjoyable!

It was relevant. Seriously!

Precisely my point. Thank you. It is a shame that you crossed it out in your edit.

My only remaining issue that stands is of the triple quote in my previous post.

My bad.

I didn't remove it, though. But you edited out of your post what that was meant to reply to. And as I said, I'd already agreed to it.

No I don't. I'd already addressed that. And I'm too tired now, anyway.

Where? I did not use previously use any of those three quotes.

Alright. I needed to break from this for a day. Debates like these just suck away my energy like nothing else.



Here's the thing, Moose. If I'm interpreting your Frankensteining of my previous quotes correctly, then yes, I've already addressed that. Perception. I'm just gonna say that as of this point, you're probably just going to have to accept that maybe I'm not as wrong as your originally perceived. I've offered explanations galore already to defuse past and present issues, but I think there's plenty of information to go on already for the rest.

The ball is in your court with your choice of perception. I done offering explanations (if I ever really needed to, even).



But here's one last thing about perception, though, since it's on my mind now: Though a map maker makes his maps to be enjoyed, the maps themselves do not necessarily have to be intrinsically enjoyable themselves. A map maker may also make concept maps, experimental maps, test maps, or even private maps just for their own enjoyment. Things that others will probably not appreciate on their immediate surface value alone; if at all. But that does not mean they do not have value.

A speaker, too, may make their messages abstract, symbolic, sarcastic, or even intended only for themselves (but talking to oneself is generally frowned upon ). Though I've already accepted from the onset of this thread that reasoning may not be an option (that is, people will not always adopt a logical choice of perception), there is a certain level of control over perception that even the listener must adhere to as part of being respectful. A player can just choose not to play a map they don't enjoy. A listener can choose to ignore a speaker's messages just the same. That's fair to expect.


But the problem here that's been made apparent is that messages cannot just be ignored. In fact, technically speaking, NO message can just be ignored after it has been received, really. There is a layer between that where a choice has to be made to do that. Asking for respect and other shit is one thing, but until one sees how they play into all of that, it's a hollow request to agree to. I've been hoping to address that layer with this thread's discussion so that it is acknowledged as a choice, for a start. Defining limits to that choice, therefore, is trivial (could just call it 'fairness', perhaps).

Ultimately, that part will be your decision in the end, Moose. I just hope you're able to make it a good one, now.



Now then. I need a real break. Unless the little birds on your shoulder want to come down and speak for themselves for a change (and even then I'm not sure I have the stomach to continue this debate on their behalf), I really want to get back to doing what I enjoy rather than spend more of my energy on this, thank you.

I suppose I was being difficult, insofar some of the same posts following previous events in this discussion will be posted again. To same time, we can fast-forward.

1. I will suggest that you're trolling, but I don't think that will make much difference.
2. What's the worst that will happen if you suddenly disappear and go "back to doing what you enjoy"? IMO, you're taking things way too personally. You have in your head the notion that all of these things MUST and HAVE TO happen, and oh no, god forbid that your e-pride will take a blow if Dapperdan and Devilesk don't come out to face the full force of your self-righteousness. The world isn't going to fall apart if this doesn't happen NOW because you go and take a break (or if it doesn't happen at all). You can go take a break whenever you want, and there's nothing me, Dapperdan, or Devilesk can do to stop you. The clock keeps on ticking, so if you consider this wasted time, don't blame us. It was your decision to continue here instead of doing what you enjoy. Your soap opera wasn't as overdue as your reality check.
(That's really what I think. That is not any of my "birds" talking. Or, "There. I said it." Sorry, I know that was harsh.)

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on May 26 2008, 6:06 am by Mini Moose 2707.

My perception of this comment of Moose's was not that he was making a point, but that he was asking Tux to address the disrespect Tux showed him with the "Well hey, I respect you as staff, but as a person, I'd have thought better" comment, just as Tux had Moose address the disrespect Moose showed him with the immaturity comment.

But Tux's assumption that Moose was making a point, and Moose's subsequent response, caused another rift in understanding (although fortunately, it was a short tangent). Whether this is Tux's faulty perception, Moose's faulty expression, or MY faulty perception of both speakers is unclear.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on May 26 2008, 10:04 am by razorsnail.

It won't. I've addressed virtually every argument thrown at me during all 89 posts in this thread with pretty much just reasoning alone. You get no entitlement now within the realm of reason to make that claim anymore. I am not in the wrong here. This discussion is sufficient enough to prove of that... if even that was ever needed. I do not ask you to agree anymore, and I've reached my energy and patience limit besides.
You know, I don't care about what choices you make with whom you consult. You're right anyway that it wouldn't really matter if they did speak for themselves, anyhow.

But you should know by now this has nothing to do with self-righteousness, e-pen0r, or any of that shit. I've been very clear on that this whole time. I won't assume if you've kept up with the debate this far that you're stupid, so I can only see it as a choice of ignorance to buy into that crap at this stage. I am the way I am, and there's just certain parts to that that are not going to change. Same as you. I have no regrets. I enjoy functioning the way I do, as it serves me well towards getting stuff done in general (and not just SC maps, mind you!)

To be quite honest, I'm very close to the border of abandoning respectfulness, now, with that statement. It wouldn't matter to me a hoot now if you were the fucking president himself attacking me on that level. I shouldn't have to put up with that.


But I'll hold to my word and stick to my choice to abandon this discussion, instead, as one last gesture of respect on my part. But I think you should know that I don't deserve that. I'd appreciate an apology.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 26 2008, 11:17 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.

Suppose they post and you humiliate them until they apologize. That's a best case scenario for you, which will probably not happen regardless. What will be achieved besides embittering them further? Why would someone show up for their own execution if they didn't have to?
If you truly believe some good will come of their appearance here, let me know. I am willing to tell them to start posting and fall back into mediating a discussion in the name of progress.

Let me attack this from a different angle.
I say that you are being self-righteous because you have started a topic in order to involve the entire community as a whole, when you should be dealing on an individual basis with specific people. It isn't so much that everything should or shouldn't be done in public because we have nothing to hide, but rather that personal-level relations between each individual of SEN are irrelevant to the whole. (which is why we are primarily the only posters ) The notion that the community can be treated as a whole is, for the most part, false.

Saying something does not make it so. Neither you nor I may dictate what reason is.
Your calling out of them has become much more direct and serious, which is the only reason I bring up trolling. It was respectful up until that point, after which I think you began to go too far.

I question your application of this to this particular situation. But, if you believe it is best, more power to you.

You are posting, therefore you are not keeping your word to abandon this discussion. Though, if there is new progress to be made now, I would re-evaluate this decision.

I will apologize for the bluntness I used to make my point, but I do not apologize for the point that I wish to communicate. The point is that if you really want to take a break, you shouldn't be making these debates more important. I simply feel you've lost perspective on the issue.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on May 27 2008, 1:02 am by Mini Moose 2707.

*sigh*



So you confess that mah uber leet reasoning skillz are too much for you to handle on your own!

Wow! 3v1 this whole time. I'm THAT awesome!

BRING IT BIOTCHES!

Hmm. Pretty sure I answered this too. Oh well.

Didja know that I am mudkip?

I discovered my inner pokemon!



No seriously. I'm fucking mudkip!

That's because I'm fuckin' mudkip, bitch!



Mudkips get to do whatever the fuck they want!


Mud.

Kip.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 27 2008, 4:12 am by Tuxedo-Templar.

So much for mutual respect.

I know. I know.


Just close the god damned thing already.

This post has been deleted at the request of the poster.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 27 2008, 5:16 am by Mini Moose 2707.

It's okay tux, I'm still your friend.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LWSjUe0FyxQ

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 27 2008, 5:10 am by Test.