Europe taxes their gasoline prices higher than the market price. The US subsidizes our gasoline prices lower than the market price. Neither is beneficial.
But our economy, employment rate, and assimilation policies are still better than Europe's.

No, our economy is worse than Europe's.

1 Euro in USD:

If there is no immigration policy, the point is that there's no such thing as illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is very small part drug and violence, and much more want for a better life.

People cause riots, not worker inefficiency. For the unemployment, look below.

What people never realize is that unemployment does not cause crime.

The first part is untrue, but the second part you can say about pretty much any northern country.

No it's not. That's just the exchange rate. If you go by exchange rate, then Kuwait has the best economy since 1 Kuwaiti dollar = 80 US dollars. Exchange rates
alone does not indicate economic strength.

1. Our GDP per capita is $40,000, almost 50% more than the average western European's GDP per capita.
2. Our unemployment rate is 3-5%. Europe's unemployment is almost double that amount, around 8-10%

When I say no immigration policy, I mean they have no border enforcement agencies. Illegal immigrants AND legal immigrants both want a better life. So how is it fair to legal immigrants who have to wait years, pay thousands for visas & greencards, and wait in line by respecting the laws - how is it fair that illegal immigrants are given the same right as them? Doing nothing about illegal immigration is just rewarding people who 'cut in line' in front of the law abiding legal immigrants.

Worker inefficiency leads to unemployment. Unemployment leads to riots and crime.

That is blatantly wrong. It has long been proven that unemployment does in fact cause people to resort to violence and crime.
Sociologists and researchers have established this fact decades ago.


The first part is true. Germany has the 3rd largest economy in nominal GDP in the world. France is the 6th largest economy in nominal GDP in the world. Thus by simple definition, they are 'some of the largest economies in the world.' And just because a nation is northern doesn't make it rich. Russia and Mongolia are around the same latitude as Northern Europe, and both are developing nations.

Yes, but the change in value is a decent indicator. A country with a strong economy doesn't lose it's dollar value.
It is strange that so few Buddhist monks, though all are unemployed technically, are committing felonies. Unemployment and crime are CORRELATED, but neither is the cause of the other. It is more likely that they are both caused by a similar force.

These are so hard to do effectively that it becomes idiotic. There will always be gaps, and even if there aren't immigrants will always find a way in. It's just that guards are not as desperate as immigrants can be.

I think that here is where we have the worst illegal inmigration problem. And yet african inmigrants don't cause much problems, east inmigrants are usually worse because they use violence to steal people and such.
The biggest problem that the inmigration policy has is that we CANNOT depart them back to their origin countries because we don't know what country they are from, and most african countries don't want to get involved with departments.

About the crime rate, crime is proportional to stupidity, not unemployement. And sadly that's an increasing problem all over the world (specially here ).

1. Incorrect. Decreasing value on currency has to do with inflation and governmental policies. Inflation is caused by interest rates, and either economic turmoil or fast paced economic growth. Economies that experience fast paced growth WILL sometimes lose value on its currency. Furthermore, if your currency decreases, other nations will invest and spend more of their money into your economy...further promoting economic growth and introducing a larger money supply in the economy. (Case & point - the Kuwaiti Dollar is one of the strongest currencies in the world, yet their economy is 'not up to standards.')

2. Apparently you don't understand the economic term 'unemployment.' Unemployed is a person who doesn't have a job and is looking for a job. Buddhist monks are not looking for jobs, so they are "not in the workforce." Buddhist monks also have shelter and don't have to worry about starvation.
There is a correlation between crime and unemployment. Unemployment is also one of the causes/causations of crime.

"It is more likely that they are both caused by a similar force"
Would you care to elaborate more on this mysterious force? Or is that just speculation?

3. Just because there will always be illegal immigrants that slip by, doesn't mean they should totally neglect their border patrol.
That type of logic would dictate saying something like- 'there will always be crime, so we shouldn't bother to have a police force.'

Where do you live? And who are the 'east immigrants'?
Illegal immigration is the main problem. Legal immigration is fine. The biggest problem with "illegal" immigration is that nations don't bother enforcing their border patrol policies and don't punish companies that hire illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants would stop crossing over illegally if they knew there are increased security and/or if they knew there wouldn't be jobs waiting for them on the other side.

As for crime rate...I'm surprised so many of you don't see the relationship between crime and unemployment.
It doesn't matter if you're stupid, average, or slightly above average in intelligence, because if you're jobless & starving and your family is starving...it is very likely you would go and mug someone or rob a bank. Intelligent people commit LESS crimes, so intelligence is one of the factors in crime. But unemployment plays a role just as important, if not more so.

I live in Spain. And I'm refering to all the organised crime comming from the east of Europe.

Illegal immigrants are NOT the problem. Most criminals might actually be legal immigrants. I can tell you for sure that almost no crime is comming from Africa into Europe.

You're totally wrong there. There's a lot of people who don't work just because they don't want to work, they prefer stealing from others and getting rich that way. If someone's starving they'd NEVER rob a bank (rob a bank WTF?). They'd try to steal food, or small ammounts of money. Most bank robbers are just stupid and/or violent criminals.

So you're saying all the crime comes from Eastern Europe and none from Africa? Oh really? I guess that's why Africa is such a great place to live and why nations in Africa are not at all violent and war torn...gee I wonder why there are illegal immigrants coming from Africa in the first place....

If illegal immigration isn't a problem, then that's basically saying breaking the law isn't a problem. With such a permissive attitude, no wonder why crime rates are increasing.

Stupidity comes from a lack of education...which again, results from unemployment and poverty in the person's upbringing....and wala its a cycle!

Unless you're saying stupidity is genetic and that environmental upbringing is unable to turn them into model citizens...then maybe we should start having IQ tests and sterilizing and aborting the stupid and the children of the stupid.

Stupidity is genetic...

Just like exceptional intelligence is. Or red hair. Illegal immigrants are some of the hardest working people in the world, they FIGHT for their chance to become model citizens, to make an honest living, and to belong. The opportunities just aren't where they're from.

And yes, in an ideal world, there would be no stupid people, but we have this pesky human rights thing...

Remember Intranetusa, to use these fora you must possess a functioning brain.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 29 2008, 3:13 am by Syphon.

Stupidity is not being un/misinformed.

All immigrants "fight for their chance to become model citizens, to make an honest living, and to belong." The only difference is legal immigrants
do all of those things legally, whereas illegal immigrants don't have any respect for laws.

Since we're so caught up in this intelligence thing then (with a little sarcasm):
Illegal immigrants may be hard working, but they're certainly near the lower end of the intelligence ladder. That's why they all work menial
jobs as day laborers because they are inherently stupid for breaking the nation's border laws in the first place and not having the intelligence
to find better jobs move up the social ladder. Whereas legal immigrants are usually in the higher skilled jobs that require more intelligence.

Since you dislike stupid people so much, banning illegal immigration and punishing illegal immigration would make a lot of sense, wouldn't it?

Btw, I find it interesting that elements here believe stupidity is solely from genetics. Yet I've also heard arguments that support
illegal immigration from these very same elements.

If you take a look at IQ charts conducted by researchers, it'll show that the vast majority of illegal immigrants actually have very low IQs.
So how does "pro-anti stupid people" and "pro-stupid illegal immigrants" go hand and hand?

They score lowly on IQ tests, and work menial jobs because they're uneducated, and often non-fluent in the new language... Because they never had the opportunity for education in their native land. This does not mean they're unintelligent. As we all know, education != intelligence. Go look at second generation illegal immigrants. *rolls eyes*

Intelligence is clearly an inherited characteristic.

And they have respect for laws. Laws are not a black and white matter, you can disrespect some and be fine with others. They don't breaks laws, they break a law, that is hindering their development as human beings.

Didn't you say in your previous statement that So are you agreeing with me and the fact that nurture/education plays a role in stupidity & intelligence?

Regardless of whether or not you think intelligence is mainly genetics and 'nuture' factors such as education plays little role...it does bring up another interesting point: it has been proven that legal immigrants do at least score higher on IQ tests than illegal immigrants. (IQ test can be administered regardless of language, and you don't need an education to prepare for it either). What of your 'stupidity is genetic statement'?

As for your argument that
So illegal immigration is perfectly fair when legal immigrants have to wait years, pay thousands in legal fees, and wait patiently in line for a chance to legally come into a nation to start a better life...

Then you would agree with this logic?:
It is perfectly fair that the school bully can cut in front of you in the school lunch line and/or steal your lunch money. Screw the line and the rules, it's a dog eat dog world with first come first serve!

Sure, some rules are made to be broken. But don't you think all people should be held to the same standards? Why should we give illegal immigrants more benefits than legal immigrants?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 29 2008, 5:17 am by Intranetusa.

Because they're starving? There's a BIG difference between comming illegaly to a country to steal things and comming because you have nothing to eat.
I'm not going to debate whether the illegal immigrants have or not a low IQ. When I said that crime is proportional to stupidity I was talking about european people mostly.

When people are starving they tend to become more humble, and that's probably what makes the difference. European society is degenerating at an high rate, and stupidity + having food, clothes, toys, anything they want is the cause.

And anyway when immigrants try to get illegally into a country they're risking a lot. Most of them die trying. And when they arrive they usually get the jobs that noone actually wants. So I don't think they're actually stealing anyone their job.

So apparently non-Europeans are more special than Europeans in that their crimes are not proportional to stupidity?

3 billion people in the world have nothing to eat. If you want to go solely on the basis of letting people in because their country sucks and they're starving, then why don't you ship the entire population of Africa to Europe or North America. And add another billion South East Asians while you're at it because they're starving too.

If their country sucks so much that
1. they can't feed their people, and
2. they can't control their own emigration outflow,
then a nation with balls would be doing everyone a favor by invading that nation and make it a part of its territory. Just skip the middle man altogether.

And again, you're ignoring the legal immigration factor. Don't legal immigrants want a better life too? Why should we give priority to illegal immigrants who break the law as opposed to legal immigrants who:
1. work hard
2. have a relatively high IQ
3. immigrate to nations legally without breaking any laws


If so many illegals are dying, doesn't that prove the point we should
1. beef up border security and
2. punish those who hire illegals?

By making the border less accessible and making jobs unavailable to those who come here illegally, that would discourage illegal immigration. Less people trying
to cross the border illegally would result in less deaths. If you want to prevent illegal immigrants from dying, dissuade them from coming in the first place.

That's because employers can fire all their existing workers and hire illegal immigrants for half the wage they would have to pay to legal workers. Because
they're illegal immigrants, employers can pay them whatever they want. Illegal immigrants 'takes jobs no one wants' because their presence drives down the salary
for legal workers. Obviously no legal worker would want a job that pays 1 dollar an hour because its employers hired all illegal immigrants.

There has been 2nd generation illegal immigrants who had been successful enough to get a Ph.D and become a doctor. Although, all 2nd generations are legally an "American".