exactly moose lol

Othello ne1?

Took the words right out of my mouth.

btw... why's there so many arguments going on... <.<
Genocide.. ppl don't like to be called "inexperienced" ... also.. it's just a game :\ .. and that goes to everyone.

I'd rather have people talking about their experience of the map.... instead of arguing about it :\...
Hell, I've been losing in TS a lot lately, but I can't really complain. (because I lost to all heroes XD)

One way to lower Summoner would be to make adren and boost cost gas, so they have to level mana. Or you could remove one upgrade completely.

Was the typical Summoner levelling something else?

Not really, but the Summoner would buy adren and boost as soon as they got minerals for it.

...Or if you can give the spawning pool once they purchase l2/l3.

Fuck me, just deleted a huge post by clicking a bookmark. Gah.

[quote CAFG]'Fun' games (at least to faz-) are ones that are 'herocentric', which requires the spawns to be nothing more than food, and not a counter or have game-ending effects. I wouldn't be opposed to this, but let's at least be honest about it and call it like it is. Either the game's competition resolves around how you can get the most out of your food(which has plenty of depth) by team splashing, multi-laning, or constant lane presence(medic); or spawns are treated as something more than food, and become an integral part of every game and needed to win.

When faz hates the idea of players being required to do anything with spawn - if a hero can't handle the problem himself with his spells then something is wrong. I still contend that faz wants spawn to have nothing more than the role of being food.[/quote]
The huge difference between Reavers and improving spawn is that Reavers, due to their nature as 16 exp splash beasts, are required to be powerful as hell in order to warrant getting them. As such, they force the conclusion of the game by themselves.

On the other hand, if each team spawns say 180 HP, 20 damage Broodlings, spawns go from being feed to being a power in their own right. This isn't a problem, though, because both teams do so. Neither team has to "deal with it." These spawns then act as a form of map control. With hero support, you shift the conflict towards the opponent's base and eventually reach a warp gate or defenses. Because the spawns aren't complete feed, over time they need to be fought back or you will lose the warp gate or have a hole broken in your defenses.

So yes, they do need to be "dealt with," but what you're actually dealing with is the enemy hero who is supporting those spawns in, not the spawns themselves which effectively cancel each other out. In such a scenario, spawns are neither feed nor the focus of the game, which you contend must be such (in a false dichotomy, since we're throwing around logical fallacies).

Having spawns as map control is an element of DotA that I've always wanted to see in Temple Siege. Since we're working on fine tuned balance in this version, it would require an entirely different branch because such a change would throw the hero balance completely out of sync.

One change that would remedy how spawns are without completely removing their uses is to make buildings "one-time" spawns. That way, you can get a Reaver to break through a spawn cluster, or to assault cannons, or something along those lines. But you aren't forcing the game to be decided by doing so, you aren't spawning Reavers forever so it's not a win/lose type of thing. If you get stopped and it dies, it's a minor defeat and you lose a small edge. I seem to recall you agreeing with me on nested victories: this would be one such.

[quote Genocidal.Legend]Summoner vs mech, this is why you lose:
-Summoner out exp's you
-Mech Cannot stop Swarmkill of base
-Summoner can mass spawn mech so easy due to 2x/3x income[/quote]

Those are the legitimate claims that you made. The first and second are obvious: if the situation devolves to a 1v1 base race, nothing will beat a good Summoner. Does that make it a hard counter to every class? Also, Siege Tanks deal damage in swarm, so I do have a counter if you're stupid enough to bring the Summoner itself, which evidently you would be.

As for the third, it's probably true, but I don't really care. I can't stop anyone from doing that no matter what course I take in the game unless I go spawns myself, and I'd rather just not play if I'm going to force the outcome in such a way. So, I'll bitch out my opponents but I can't really stop them from using such options, it's a part of the game (that I'd prefer seeing changed).

[quote Genocidal.Legend]-Take the game out of your hands and hopefully win for you? This is exactly what i am talking about, you absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. Only noobs would throw out reavers and "Hope that it will win for them", Reavers are there for the guaranteed win not, something you just randomly throw out. They put the game back in your hands by the way because you gain map control, and pin the heros to their base.[/quote]
I'm sorry, weren't you just arguing that Reavers took skill to use? Now you're saying that they are a "guaranteed win" if used in the right scenario? That strangely looks exactly like what I said earlier:

[Quote FaZ-]The only reason to get Reavers is a tactical decision that takes the game out of your hands and hopefully wins for you.[/quote]



As for game-relevant stuff:

If the Guardians are going to auto-target spawns and cannons, I'd rather see them be similar to the Archer L1 in that the first hit is random, but subsequent hits can be directed manually as you please. That depends on the precedence of target selection, however.

That was me, although obviously I didn't say it in such a way, and I was referring to the Dark Orb. I didn't realize that it was drawn in such a way because an Orb usually has absolutely no reason to be near a Volt. I said "nvm" shortly thereafter when I thought about how it draws in LM L1, Mutant L2, etc.

I was genuinely surprised that my Orb, a pet, was pulled, and thus the question of the Companions. I doubt any of you would have thought anything of running it by a Volt either, it's not a situation that's usually, if ever, seen. I have been spoofed before, but that game wasn't one.

No excuse really there, I didn't know whether or not Volt L2 pulled pets because I rarely play as Volt. If not knowing that makes my opinions of balance faulty, you desperately need to take a logic course. You just said yourself that every time you think you have something to learn, there's something new. That was new to me.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:34 pm by Decency.

Tanks counter summoner w/ burrow? Yea good luck with that. I never said summoner was a hard counter to every class, nor was I implying he could base race every class. No use talking to someone who doesn't know basic fundamentals.

Yea ok I learn something knew, but I knew that volt does it since the first time I played volt. Everyone pretty much knew this, why are you so in the dark? You can say I need logic courses blah blah blah, but evidently I know my fundamentals and basics you dont. Whatever, point is brush up on your fundamentals, and learn to play before trying to critically analyze the TS game like you know what you are talking about.

Yes, because you clearly specified the reason for burrowing and combat at night.

Ok moose let me specify this, AGAIN:

---WE ARE CLEAR EVERYTIME I BRING UP A SCENARIO WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MORONS---

k, That clear enough?

If you really thought a summoner is going to burrow midday in swarm vs a mech. Clearly YOUR fundamentals are off, that would have NEVER crossed my mind.

I know you didn't say that, but if you understood logic you'd understand that the point that you made can be extrapolated in that way because, just as those claims are true for Mech, those claims are true for other heroes.

Burrow stops the tanks, yeah. You have to unburrow to cast Dark Swarm, though. Is it a hard counter, no, but it gives a slight chance.

Uh. Why the hell not? It's equally as good as doing so at night in the way that matters.

K Faz-, you can play games with logic and such, and nit pick. Point is, Since I am good, I would never burrow midday w/ swarm vs mech. That option would never cross my mind, since that option so idiotic I would never even bring it up.

Play good people. Get good. Get your game up. K thx.

Mech L3 rapes summoner if all hit, since he big/medium and most pump mana not HP. Mech L3 will most likely result in a 1shot. Anything else I need to teach you?

who said he's talking about midday? at night you still have to unburrow to cast ds so his logic is still sound.

so which one is it? first you say they dont counter summoner, then you say they do?

[quote Genocidal.Legend]K Faz-, you can play games with logic and such, and nit pick. Point is, Since I am good, I would never burrow midday w/ swarm vs mech. That option would never cross my mind, since that option so idiotic I would never even bring it up.[/quote]
Lol then you clearly don't understand this "basic fundamental" of StarCraft:

Burrowed units take zero damage from Siege Tanks in Dark Swarm.

Okay guys.

TEMPLE SIEGE STRATEGY 101:

Class is in session.
*THIS IS NOT A SCENARIO WITH MORONS*
Summoner base assault vs mech.

-Never go midday, Mechs L3 will complete obliterate you.
-DONT GO MIDDAY EITHER BECAUSE HE WILL INTERCEPT YOU BECAUSE HE CAN SEE YOU, AND HES REALLY FAST! (Thanks to shredder for reminding me to mention he can see you in broad daylight)
-Always go at night when you can burrow.
-Since Tanks will take so long to kill lings under swarm and you mana will be so high as summoner, which it should be during base assault vs mech, any lings he kills will be easyliy replaced.
-Please dont base rape with anything less than 15 ups, and thats a strech.
-Go in with 250 NRG.
-While he is in mech mode, trying to kill your lings w/ tanks just reswarm during the spell animation of his L1, His L1 is laggy so timing it should be inconsequential. If he is in siege mode trying to your kill your lings, rape him for his noobishness.
-If he catches you with a mine just swarm immediately after u pop up, he will most likely try to punish you with L4.

Class is over.

You guys can Thank me later.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 22 2009, 3:38 am by Genocidal.Legend.

so tell me again why he cant go midday? whe burrow stops the l3, it doesnt really matter if its night or day...

ad btw, faz is right about burrowed units not getting hurt by splash...

Genocidal, watch the attitude.

Well Gee I wonder why, maybe its because mech is the fastest unit and the game and will be able to intercept you before you reach for swarm. Punishing you appropiately with either L3 or L4.

Lol then you clearly don't understand this "basic fundamental" of StarCraft:

Burrowed units take zero damage from Siege Tanks in Dark Swarm.[/quote]

Okay Faz- you are absolutely right, Your the man. But you know I'm right though.

Lol. And since it's day, you can see him coming far more easily and have more time to prepare. He has a much better chance of surprising you at night.

Either way, this is inconsequential. A Summoner needs to make a mistake or the Mech needs to set up an awesome trap 3 times or the Summoner will win. In a 1v1, nothing comes close to it, as I've said many times. That doesn't make it a hard counter to everything.

Thank you FaZ-.

By the way shredder stop the nitpicking please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitpicking

what so making you validate your own points is nitpicking?