I guess my suggestions are too drastic? (at v1.5)

I'm iffy about the ensnare.... Maybe if it is summoned like the sci-ves and not spawned and killed like the corsair, it may work better... Maybe..

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 17 2009, 9:28 pm by UnholyUrine.

No, it think a lot of people just gave up on 1.5, and idk why. They ask for better versions, and then when someone comes out with one, they just complain and say it's worse and never go into the topic again.

Lol yeah...
It may also have something to do with my not-really-finishing-things-until-I'm-thoroughly-interested kinda attitude.
Which is sad, because without encouragement, I usually lose interest of my old maps .. but for you, killer, and flashbeer, I'd do it =D

Personally, I think the Summoner's summons should instantly die if they leave the summoners general location.

awww, unholy just made me feel warm and fuzzy inside! lol.

Aww, I'm so loved...


and that wouldn't work, Darkling.

Why not? It would make the Summoner vunerable even if he's got the powerhouse pack of Zerglings.

It's not a matter of fairness, it's that this game can't do that with StarCraft's limits.

I can kill them them off 1 by 1 until the player gets the message. I'd like to see possibly just an option for the summoner to have this drawback, but gain say an extra 3 starting civs if they want to play that type of summoner build.

This isn't a flame or anything but the idea of having lings die without summoner or having a limit on zergling range is just plain inexperienced talk. Summoner is by far one of the most powerful classes in the game, this is offset by his universal weakness which everyone has access to, which is reavers. SpecOps,Mutant,Warrior, and Bat Can already control him pretty well. Vult can handle lings until, same with volt with his L3, the collateral becomes too much and Abyssal start tearing them apart. Ensnare with summoner is just insanely broken, especially combined with L3 and speed upgrade, not to mention with his huge leveling capacity. He will never be oneshotted, and can heal whenever. Summoners L2 has it uses, just most people don't use it effectively. For instance, L2 can be used for reaver control. Also stops Dweb+nuke.

If the summoner doesnt want to leave base, big deal. The summoner himself isnt supposed to have a huge field presence. He should out for tactical reasons, not just because "ROFL I WANT HIM TO COME OUT BECAUSE I CANNOT KILL HIM AT BASE ROFL!". Simple solution is to kill his teamate(s), then reaver.

Changing lings to 10 max was completely useless by the way. 12 was fine, especially since now warrior can control the summoner decently.

I do not know why you guys fear summoner so much, yes he is powerful, yes he can be gamebreaking, but yet he is so easyliy gimped and controlled.

And for the final time, NO HE IS NOT BROKEN 2v2. JEEZ.

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on Jul 20 2009, 11:44 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

I've played Temple SIege for months now, Its hardly inexperienced talk. It would prevent the Summoner from training on ALL THREE lanes, and that would make the summoner extremly more vunerable, which is something that should be have been done for quite some time.

Darkling Says:

It is inexperienced talk or else we wouldn't be having this conversation. Who cares if he is vulnerable or not. Everyone has access to his huge weakness a.k.a reavers. Also we have more than 4 hero's who can control him decently. If he is training all three lanes even better, his teamates are then 10x easier to kill because they arent leveling but the summoner is. When his teamates die, bam, reaver time. Summoner is one of the most easiest units to destroy. If the summoners team has more than two or three gates in his poession then he becomes EVEN easier to control.

Its almost the Same thing with the assassin, if he isnt a complete moron he wont die at all, so you take out his teamates and then you aim for his temple or mass spawn vs him. Even with detection he will not die very easy, same concept.

Just because you play Temple Siege for months doesn't mean you grasp the fundamentals of the game or are any good. Just from my experience people who have complained about summoner being so overpowered are the same ones who are not very good at all. If you had any sense of the fundamentals of the game, you realize that if your suggestion was implemented Mech would lose his only hard counter, which is summoner. Now summoner cannot effectively stop nuke because he was out training with his 10 feet limited lings.

According to your suggestion. Now he cannot destroy mass spawn (sans reavers), because he has to walk inside the enemy base make lings and possibly get raped by heros and spawn because of his 10 feet limited lings and lets not forget about that mech who is inside your base raping your temple while you are out destroying the spawn he made, or the LM doing about 4k per combo to your temple because you cannot let lings out of your range. Oh lets not forget the Sin who tearing your temple a new one in BROAD DAYLIGHT because your lings cannot leave your area. You will probably say "ROFL GENOCIDAL, SUMMONER JUST GO FOR THE SINS TEMPLE!", oh wait he has teleport and as soon as you reach you get a stunned, neutralized lings, and decapped to death Nice! Not to mention hes invincible at temple. Yea get the picture, perfectly balanced isn't it?

Play the game more, play good people, get experienced. Stop the inexperienced talk.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 21 2009, 12:37 am by Genocidal.Legend.

[quote Genocidal.Legend]Simple solution is to kill his teamate(s), then reaver.[/quote]
You don't seem to get it. No one wants to go Reavers, because it takes the game completely out of your hands and takes fucking forever. Even if I was guaranteed a win, in a public game I would never go Reavers. It's BORING. Most of us play this game foremost either for fun or for good competition. Reavers fulfill neither. In a tournament where there's a chance of having one of the two later on, yeah, I might use Reavers. But I wouldn't feel good about doing so.


Summoner is imbalanced 2v2 by a shitton. Even against Mech and Mutant, probably the ideal counter, I highly doubt you'd be able to keep his exp down.

In 3v3, I'd say he's pretty fair depending on the matchup, but he's essentially unkillable (3rd life). I take tons of risks when I play as it and if I die a couple of times, no huge deal. If that happens then I just burrow in my base and I'm still 90% as effective as I was with my last life. Making it more common for the Summoner to use his higher level spells and be out of the base before 500 exp is a good thing. The ensnare might make actually make him too powerful in a 3v3, he's not losing any options (2 lings?) but he's gaining some pretty significant ones.


I don't think forcing lings to be near the Summoner is a good suggestion at all. One of the best features of the class, possibly the only good one, is his map control with Zerglings. If you take that away the class is boring as hell and you won't be able to do absolutely anything PvP. I can't think of a good way to gimp him, but that's definitely not it and as has been said would not be efficiently triggerable anyway.

[quote Genocidal.Legend]Mech would lose his only hard counter, which is summoner.[/quote]
Giant facepalm. I don't think that I have died to a Summoner as Mech since before MT.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 21 2009, 1:56 am by FaZ-.

Not even gonna bother.

Newbies are the ones that attempt to REDUCE a summoner's xp. The only thing Mech and Mutant are ideal for is spending all their time which they could be leveling chasing a single ling around the map. You find Summoner gaining too much xp? Take control of the appropriate gates (which could possibly stop the summoner ALTOGETHER, depending on ally) and/or send spawn to different lane to cut off multiple lane leveling. Ez game ;D

[quote Genocidal.Legend]Mech would lose his only hard counter, which is summoner.[/quote]
This is the type of linear thinking that plagues these boards. Coming from the person who claims that DM would counter Assault, I would assume that they would at least know something fundamental such as that countering a hero doesn't just involve being able to out micro them head on. You may as well say be saying that Volt counters LM because he can avoid him, or that Assassin counters Mutant because you can tele away and not die.

This is what we're doing with the new L2 - giving the Summoner a tactical reason to leave the base.

D-Web + Nuke will no longer be a factor.

Saying he is not does not make it so, regardless of whether or not it is true.

This is not good logic, regardless of whether or not it is true. Please do not post like this.

Not that I plan to implement the idea, but for argument's sake nobody ever specified a range besides you. This misrepresentation is the Straw Man logical fallacy.

---

Re: Reavers
Honestly, these days I'd like to see Reavers un-added (I did add them, by the way) as well as spawn level-rushing removed and balance adjusted accordingly. If I may invent a word, the gameplay should be herocentric.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jul 21 2009, 2:52 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

personally i like the idea. It fits well with the game. You can choose where to invest points and whatnot. problem is it is extremely hard to balance. It will either feed or it will crush. That is the part i dislike. If there was another way to gain exp other than killing spawn and defenses were stronger it might be a strategy that wouldn't feel quite so boring and dull as it does now. Which i think this is where we leave the limits of sc and get into sc2 which is sad but maybe one or both of you would make it for sc2 whenever it finally comes out lol.

The logic is sound, whether you agree with it or not. The only reason to get Reavers is a tactical decision that takes the game out of your hands and hopefully wins for you.

You just said newbies are the ones that attempt to reduce his exp income, and then gave an explanation of how to do it... huh? Assuming you were just typing the first part as a obnoxious insult without realizing how absolutely stupid it was:

This helps, but it also locks you into that lane to protect your spawns making you unable to do anything else. I can't think of any classes I'd rather have execute that strategy than the aforementioned two, though. The speed lets you keep his ling count down and the night vision and mines/splash help versus burrow.


I claimed that a DM counters a Nuker-Assault well, simply because it does. You can exp while adequately protecting your base. No other hero can do so except perhaps the Summoner. I still don't see how people are denying that this is true. You sit the Dark Orb next to the front temple cannons in your base. If you hear a nuke get launched, you circle around the back and maelstrom the ghost. An Orb is not slow enough to get bombed: end of threat.

Mech vs. Summoner: I vulture his lings, if he sends ultras I go 2zz and blast them apart. The only chance a Summoner has against a Mech is in a 1v1 temple race where it's going to beat anyone anyway by virtue of the class. In a 3v3 for a Mech the Summoner is the 3rd easiest hero to me, behind only the magi.


I also like the removal of spawns idea.

Maybe we can't have our cake and eat it too. 'Fun' games (at least to faz-) are ones that are 'herocentric', which requires the spawns to be nothing more than food, and not a counter or have game-ending effects. I wouldn't be opposed to this, but let's at least be honest about it and call it like it is. Either the game's competition resolves around how you can get the most out of your food(which has plenty of depth) by team splashing, multi-laning, or constant lane presence(medic); or spawns are treated as something more than food, and become an integral part of every game and needed to win.

The only way we could have it work both ways is if we could modify kills like we can deaths. Too bad we can't.

The irony lies within the sheer number of times FaZ- has advocated for the advancement of spawn over time. Reavers are just the exception for him. Another example of the Straw Man fallacy.

Anyway, I've got the Archer L3 done. The only problem is that it really likes targetting Cannons over spawn. Haven't tried it with heroes. Then again, how many other heroes have had their damage spells foiled by the units attacking Cannons anyway?