Temple Siege v1 (Topic)

Quote from name:zany_001

I assume that peoples problem with the fbat and nuke is when he goes around the side and back, and dwebs cannons and cloaks and nukes. An easy fix would be to prevent the dropship going around the sides. If that is too hard, have a trigger that kills all corsairs outside of the arena. Then people only have to make one or two cannons to protect against it. Adding a cost would make it take longer but by the time you are at lvl4 it wont be much of a problem unless it's a hefty cost.

And incidentally mech bike does totally pwn summoner.

I'm sure that lil ol mech bike does pwn that big ol abyssal demon doesnt it? Pretty much 4shotting your mech bike with his +20 ups not to mention the lings? Including swarm, sounds like total pwnage to me :-_-:

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How about making the corsair a summon... just like the science vessel?

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meme

Quote from Iceman16

No skill in making spawn? Wrong.

You save up 4 levels per teammate as you wait for the second night. Then your computer player is running around with Hydralisks as you get spawn # upgrades. The entire game changes. Regardless of whether or not it's too strong or weak, the gameplay shifts dramatically. You and your temple either survive the onslaught of Hydralisks and win, or you fail and lose. You may as well have played a defense map with spells. That is the argument against spawn rushing: it turns TS into a different game.

Quote from Iceman16

Assault takes a LARGE amount of skill, what people fail to realize because only one person knows how to play it. No, I'm not talking about the straightforward stun and attack. I'm talking about the type of things that separates the newbies from the pros. You do realize that just about EVERYONE thought this hero to be a complete waste of space until some people like o0Maxx0o actually used this hero for what it's worth and then the hero suddenly became OP. Of course it's going to look overpowered when playing someone extremely skilled at the hero.

Unfortunately, we cannot look into the future when we balance. A system consisting of:
Assault + Newb = (very likely) lose
Assault + Maxx = (very likely) win
is not balance.

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Thigh high affectionado

Quote from Iceman16

like Spec Ops takes skill while Dark Marine, Summoner and Assault take none.

If only you knew.

Firebat takes ZERO skill against spawns and using that he can quickly work his way to the top. He isnt like the summoner who can screw up and be either top on exp, or bottom, he doesnt have to worry about little techicalities like that. So why does that make him special? Why does he get a game winning spell. Volt has a strong L4 and so does the Ling, but you do not see them used very often because they require SKILL. If you take too long inside their base, you die, if you get trapped, you die. If you use the ghost and a nuke with dropship for the firebat, you have ZERO RISK to do tons of damage to the enemy base. If the ghost was forced to stay next to the Firebat and called "Laser designator" then it would be fine, but as long as ZERO RISK is involved, it is overpowered.

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Sure I didn't pop off on SCBW like I wanted to, but I won VRChat. Map maker for life.

meme

... why are you even quoting my post to say that?

A different L4 for Assault. You mean what FaZ- suggested about 10 posts ago that you were too busy arguing to read? :lol:

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The sword and the faith

Quote from

Mini Moose 2707

Quote from Iceman16

Assault takes a LARGE amount of skill, what people fail to realize because only one person knows how to play it. No, I'm not talking about the straightforward stun and attack. I'm talking about the type of things that separates the newbies from the pros. You do realize that just about EVERYONE thought this hero to be a complete waste of space until some people like o0Maxx0o actually used this hero for what it's worth and then the hero suddenly became OP. Of course it's going to look overpowered when playing someone extremely skilled at the hero.

Unfortunately, we cannot look into the future when we balance. A system consisting of:
Assault + Newb = (very likely) lose
Assault + Maxx = (very likely) win
is not balance.

Same problem you're going to have with hardcore gamers vs casual gamers, which Nintendo I believe dealt with very poorly with the Wii. A lot of franchises on the other systems as well are being much too easy in the minds of the hardcore gamers to cater to the casuals. I think the question is who are you trying to cater to? I think those that have put in the time to learn the map/heroes deserve the reward in this case. Then again, I'm not a TS player, so what do I know?

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>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

Quote from name:zany_001

I assume that peoples problem with the fbat and nuke is when he goes around the side and back, and dwebs cannons and cloaks and nukes. An easy fix would be to prevent the dropship going around the sides. If that is too hard, have a trigger that kills all corsairs outside of the arena. Then people only have to make one or two cannons to protect against it. Adding a cost would make it take longer but by the time you are at lvl4 it wont be much of a problem unless it's a hefty cost.

And incidentally mech bike does totally pwn summoner.

I'm sure that lil ol mech bike does pwn that big ol abyssal demon doesnt it? Pretty much 4shotting your mech bike with his +20 ups not to mention the lings? Including swarm, sounds like total pwnage to me :-_-:

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The bike has plenty more speed than demons so it can micro them. And demons are 9 levels to counter one unit. Overkill IMO. Just ignore the bike or let allies take care of it, while you take out any other heroes and the base.

Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

@Moose
Good start. But the mana drain was essential to bat gameplay, though the slow effect could compensate for it thats interesting, though this is good foundation. Though i am still against a direct damage spell for bat. The L2 is defintiely a boost, i like it. Moose i was also thinking, Could we give bat a different L4 is Ghost+Dropship was should a huge problem, i mean its something to think about. Overall definitely not a bad start. I still think carpet bomber is essential to his gameplay or else he becomes the average melee unit.

I mean i am just a gamer Moose, not a mapmaker but maybe you could think of a powerful L4 for him besides nuke, since nuke seems to be the core problem with DSHIP. In fact, moose maybe his l4 can turn all spawn like u suggested, Blitz, into his helpers, like a troop commander theme, actually that would excellent! What do you think!? Thats actually a good idea, the only problem is it is reliant on enemy spawn and could have potential for abuse. Maybe you could treat it as a "Transformation" meaning it has a cooldown, it might acutally give an incentive to assualt someones base.

Well said excalibur btw.

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Quote from name:zany_001

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

Quote from name:zany_001

I assume that peoples problem with the fbat and nuke is when he goes around the side and back, and dwebs cannons and cloaks and nukes. An easy fix would be to prevent the dropship going around the sides. If that is too hard, have a trigger that kills all corsairs outside of the arena. Then people only have to make one or two cannons to protect against it. Adding a cost would make it take longer but by the time you are at lvl4 it wont be much of a problem unless it's a hefty cost.

And incidentally mech bike does totally pwn summoner.

I'm sure that lil ol mech bike does pwn that big ol abyssal demon doesnt it? Pretty much 4shotting your mech bike with his +20 ups not to mention the lings? Including swarm, sounds like total pwnage to me :-_-:

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The bike has plenty more speed than demons so it can micro them. And demons are 9 levels to counter one unit. Overkill IMO. Just ignore the bike or let allies take care of it, while you take out any other heroes and the base.

Point was mech bike doesnt pwn summoner

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meme

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

In fact, moose maybe his l4 can turn all spawn like u suggested, Blitz, into his helpers, like a troop commander theme, actually that would excellent! What do you think!? Thats actually a good idea, the only problem is it is reliant on enemy spawn and could have potential for abuse. Maybe you could treat it as a "Transformation" meaning it has a cooldown, it might acutally give an incentive to assualt someones base.

ALL spawn? That gets kind of ridiculous. We could always bring back Marine's old L4. ;o

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

Point was mech bike doesnt pwn summoner

As if you were innocent of exaggeration.

None.

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

Quote from name:zany_001

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

Quote from name:zany_001

I assume that peoples problem with the fbat and nuke is when he goes around the side and back, and dwebs cannons and cloaks and nukes. An easy fix would be to prevent the dropship going around the sides. If that is too hard, have a trigger that kills all corsairs outside of the arena. Then people only have to make one or two cannons to protect against it. Adding a cost would make it take longer but by the time you are at lvl4 it wont be much of a problem unless it's a hefty cost.

And incidentally mech bike does totally pwn summoner.

I'm sure that lil ol mech bike does pwn that big ol abyssal demon doesnt it? Pretty much 4shotting your mech bike with his +20 ups not to mention the lings? Including swarm, sounds like total pwnage to me :-_-:

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The bike has plenty more speed than demons so it can micro them. And demons are 9 levels to counter one unit. Overkill IMO. Just ignore the bike or let allies take care of it, while you take out any other heroes and the base.

Point was mech bike doesnt pwn summoner

But it does. As I just said, bike micros demons. Bike one-hits and micros lings. Level 2 might work against bike but I don't know ITs stats. Level 3 doesn't change anything really unless you make a habit of going toe-to-toe as defiler vs mech.

EDIT
I guess i mean bike pwns summoned lings, and is a counter for demons.

Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Quote from

Mini Moose 2707

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

In fact, moose maybe his l4 can turn all spawn like u suggested, Blitz, into his helpers, like a troop commander theme, actually that would excellent! What do you think!? Thats actually a good idea, the only problem is it is reliant on enemy spawn and could have potential for abuse. Maybe you could treat it as a "Transformation" meaning it has a cooldown, it might acutally give an incentive to assualt someones base.

ALL spawn? That gets kind of ridiculous. We could always bring back Marine's old L4. ;o

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

Point was mech bike doesnt pwn summoner

As if you were innocent of exaggeration.

You know what i mean not ALL spawn, but maybe surronding spawn, for like 15-20 seconds. it could very useful call it "21 gun salute" or "March of Victory". That idea was actually pretty good moose, it will give an incentive for assaulting the base and, might add a whole new dimension of gameplay, because now instead if wanting your gates dead for base feed you will need them vs Bat L4. It really is something to think about, i dunno i just really like that idea for an L4. Problem is, it is reliant on spawn.

@Zany
Summoner is mechs hard counter for a couple of reasons:

-Summoner is usually never tangible
-Swarm destroys everything in the Mechs arsenal except L3, but mech L3 can negate the damage
-Superior grinding in everyway
-Mech is not good on taking on multiple targets, hence his weakness to mass spawn
-Mech is at best is a mediocre base racer
-Both are ups dependant problem is, yea mech at start can ling hunt but as the time goes on triple lane feed starts to show and now u got +20 lings clawing at your mech
-Due to Summoners specialty at grinding he thus gets superior income, meaning he can make mass spawn and gimp mech even worse.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 11:51 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

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Quote

Also, did you ever add the HP+20% for Medic L4? I can't find the changelog.

On another topic, keep it as it is unless the whole medic is going to be re-designed. It takes longer for medic to level in the M versions then the 1.5 version and I felt it was too strong because of how early it could be obtained.

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This is a pretty simple concept. We both know you're guessing, the fact that you think a Mech is hard countered by a summoner and think I'd hang around shooting Ultralisks with a Vulture pretty much proves that point. I know I'm guessing too, but I'm willing to admit it and am providing various points collectively called "evidence" to support my position. Insulting me is just your concession of intellectual failure in your ability to do the same.

As for the ideas, if the Dropship goes back to Firebat something new is needed for L4 of both Marine/Firebat, and preferably neither of those will be the mine drone.

Ideas that have been tossed out before that can fit to any spell level:
- Marine Squadron Summons (Modify number, bonus)
- Dark Swarm Grenade (Modify length)
- Wraiths (Modify damage, number, length, bonus)
- Yamato (Number of BC's)
... add some more? I don't really like any of these, not for a level 4, anyway.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 12:00 am by Excalibur. Reason: Removing flames. Play nice.

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[EDIT: Nevermind, Moose logged off. Next time, I guess.]

Alright, there's enough people in here, let's figure this out in an easier fashion:

http://www.gamesurge.net/chat/#sen

Pick a nickname. Then at the bottom, type /join #sen and hit enter. Easy chatroom.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 11:59 pm by FaZ-.

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For moose:

How about this:

L1: Corsair, non-pet, Dweb-slow, or Slow-drain while in web.*
l2: I like your new one, but are you able to combo it, with the l1?
L3: Keep the carpet bomber, as it is essential and what makes bat stand out
L4: Blitz, 21 gun salute,,March of Victory, e.t.c

*Moose i say non-pet because a grenade lisnt something you keep around after thrown, doesnt quite fit the theme.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 12:56 am by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Restatement ad nauseum of the 3v1.

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meme

Quote from name:FaZ-

- Wraiths (Modify damage, number, length, bonus)

Yeah, I think we're at the point where we should give Wraiths to one of these classes. Hopefully split upgrades won't ruin either the Firebat or Marine.
I know that 1.5 throws some on top of the Firebat's Grenade so that it does some damage. Maybe do that and for the Firebomb have it use Wraiths and Firebats with no ITs?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 1:05 am by Mini Moose 2707.

None.

Quote from

Mini Moose 2707

Quote from name:FaZ-

- Wraiths (Modify damage, number, length, bonus)

Yeah, I think we're at the point where we should give Wraiths to one of these classes. Hopefully split upgrades won't ruin either the Firebat or Marine.
I know that 1.5 throws some on top of the Firebat's Grenade so that it does some damage. Maybe do that and for the Firebomb have it use Wraiths and Firebats with no ITs?

Not a good idea. Split upgrades would hurt him. He relies on his stuns and fast attack to do damage, also he is a master spawn control. I say leave the bat as M3 but change the L4. I am really enthusiastic about your blitz idea, i would love to see that implemented. It would also fit his them of spawn destroyer, assaulter, disrupter. It would replace nuke as his finisher for the game (temple) and there will not be any complaints about him being so broken. That was his niche. With the new blitz idea he will be able to manipulate the spawn to assault the enemy base and do huge damage to the temple. You had the pefect formula Marine Spawn (18+2) + rapid attack + lets say it say something conservative like 10 marines attacking the base with bat at 15 ups. Thats rape in a can.

Remember moose, bat was never an outright damage hero, he was utility and could PK if he wanted but he his niche was more of a map control/utility/disrupter. Please give it some thought. Also moose, the old rine L4 definitely wasnt as broken as everyone made it out to be, it can still be a viable L4 for rine (though i have some ideas of my own for Rine i would like to share with you, but lets get bat settled first

). Think of bat in terms, of lets say, a DM but with different utilities. Whereas DM was more of a player disrupter bat is more of a map controller/disrupter. We already have enough power heros (Ling,Mech,Warrior,Archer, and Rine when pumped) lets see originality and utility.

Hell You, Myself, Faz-, and others agreed on a different L4, since nuke seems to be at the epicenter of this debate. We agreed on the M6 bat is currently lacking, now we agreed (with much debate and cursing) on a different L4. So lets give the Blitz L4 a shot. We've made progress

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One idea moose, is that to activate the L4 you need the Dropship as a prerequiste, so its like a mobile commander for the troops to drop down from, so you cannot activate it just out of nowhere. So its almost like nuke. Cept it costs 20 less gas.

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 2:09 am by Genocidal.Legend.

None.

I had n idea before, , but not quite like this

Quote

I mean i am just a gamer Moose, not a mapmaker but maybe you could think of a powerful L4 for him besides nuke, since nuke seems to be the core problem with DSHIP. In fact, moose maybe his l4 can turn all spawn like u suggested, Blitz, into his helpers, like a troop commander theme, actually that would excellent! What do you think!? Thats actually a good idea, the only problem is it is reliant on enemy spawn and could have potential for abuse. Maybe you could treat it as a "Transformation" meaning it has a cooldown, it might acutally give an incentive to assualt someones base.

this was as a new spell for marine l4, but i guess it works for assault too. How about just a summon spell, could have dropship as a prerequisite, but where it summons one, good marine every time it's used.

None.

meme

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

We agreed on the M6 bat is currently lacking, now we agreed (with much debate and cursing) on a different L4. So lets give the Blitz L4 a shot. We've made progress

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Whoa, slow down there, cowboy! Who's "we" here? I haven't agreed to a Blitz L4.

Quote from Genocidal.Legend

One idea moose, is that to activate the L4 you need the Dropship as a prerequiste, so its like a mobile commander for the troops to drop down from, so you cannot activate it just out of nowhere. So its almost like nuke. Cept it costs 20 less gas.

It's not like Assault was going to forego his Dropship for some reason. The prerequisite would have very little real impact. The thing is, Grenade and Carpet Bomber get redundant. Kind of like Volt's setup, or even Light Mage's. Unless the Bomber is in danger of being killed or too far away from Assault, there is no reason to use Grenade. You can have one chance of getting 60 counts of stun for 50 mana or four chances to stun for 60 counts divided how you like for 80 mana... it's not a tough choice. It isn't a matter of too strong or too weak, just redundancy. They are by no means EXACTLY the same, but they are, IMO, too similar. That was another thing I disliked about the old Assault.

Keep in the mind that I never set out with adhering to the old predefined niches or roles or old forms of classes as a goal for shaping this map.

http://www.staredit.net/?file=808

After some public tests (and a few bugged versions that I hope will never see the light of day again), we finally have it:

Temple Siege 1.4M7

****************************
**** ****** ***** ***** ****
*** TEMPLE SIEGE 1.4M7 ***
**** ****** ***** ***** ****
****************************
:: GENERAL
- Fixed a bug that caused a death message for a player to appear upon his leaving the game.
- P12 spider mines are now removed. (Spec. Ops and Mech)
- Decreased Temple HP from 50,000 to 40,000.
- Moved Cybernetics Core and Hive from the upgrade area to the stacked buildings area.
- Instead of having six Spires up top, there is one which is given to the player who picks Archer. (net save of 5 buildings)
- Instead of having six Hydralisk Dens up top, there is one which is given to the player who picks Archer. (net save of 5 buildings)
- Instead of having six Robotics Support Bays up top, there is one which is given to the player who picks Light Mage. (with a Pylon, so net save of 4 buildings)
- Assimilator rates for the two teams are now equal. (was 13/14 and 16/17 before)
- Gave Command Center, Supply Depot, Barracks, Engineering Bay, Science Facility, Evolution Chamber, Hive, Hydralisk Den, Spire, and Templar Archives generic names of "Structure".
- Forced Random Hero after one game minute for AFKers.

:: ARCHER
- Fixed a bug where players got the Hydralisk speed upgrade for free by casting L3 a second time.

:: ASSASSIN
- Trigger reorganization and consolidation. No other changes, just a note if anything breaks.

:: ASSAULT
- L1 is now Corsair with Disruption Web. Enemy heroes under it are slowed.
- L2 is now Grenade with a longer fuse and longer stun duration.
- Increased by half a tile (quarter tile in each direction) the effect area of Grenade. (L2)
- Increased upgrade damage on Firebomb (L3) from +2 to +4.
- Longer fuse on Firebomb (L3).
- Removed mineral cost for Nuclear Missiles. (L4)
- Can summon two Ghosts with L4.

:: MEDIC
- Fixed starting energy of Healing Spirits. (L1)

:: SPECIAL OPS
- Increased damage of Sniper Rifle (L3) from 75 + 8 to 85 + 9.
- Increased HP from 4000 to 4200.
- Carpet Bomber (L4) actually stuns now. (yes.)

:: SUMMONER
- Decreased max Zerglings (L1) to 10.

:: VOLT
- Cleaned up L3, reduced triggers by 14 lines. No changes, just a note if anything breaks.
- Fixed the bug that caused Volt L2 to transfer to the leftmost unit owned by the player.
- Fixed the never-ending L1 bug. (seriously!)
- Redid L1 hit-detection to work off a .5x.5 location centered on the hero instead of the relatively large 2x2 previously used which resulted in a lot of BS hits.

:: WARRIOR
- Increased max shields from 100 from 150. L1 still gives 10 and L4 still gives full.
- Decreased HP from 6000 to 5500.

http://www.staredit.net/?file=808

This is, as far as I can tell, the most stable and bug-free version we've had in awhile. Only problem is that allies are affected by the slowing of D-Web. But hey, 1.2 Assault did that, too. I'd like to have done more of that here, but we needed the stable release and a new version has been long overdue. That said, it's time to mess with everything in M8. Redoing the capture system (or should I say crapture system, lul) is definitely overdue. I'll talk more about future plans some other time.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2009, 4:13 am by Mini Moose 2707.

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