Faz responds: The point is you don't have to build defenses everywhere if the Assault doesn't have a dropship, you just maintain security of your choke points. Just like in any melee game, you hold your positions while he threatens to break though. If he threatens another side, you react there. If he does break through, then you defend for a bit until you can resecure your defensive choke. The point is that you know about this ahead of time because he can't just fly around your initial defenses. You KNOW when he gets through them because he's nuked, and THEN you defend. Thus you aren't required to wait at your base all night every night, and you aren't building preventative defenses, you're rebuilding already assaulted defenses and have a legitimate chance to kill the Firebat if he joins the assault. If he doesn't, he's going to be using a lot of mana trying to break in.

You dont have to build/re-build defenses everywhere? Two Ghosts,2 silos, 2 nukes at 10/60. You do the math. Even then, If i bust in. If they arent noob they will be happy I gave them base feed. Your scenario is a no win. You recommend going behind a warp? With the old bat I would cap the warp assim it, not give potential base feed, and try to nuke. Not let the enemy have the cap for strategic purposes to try an half ass nuke attempt.


So basically what you are saying is:

-I don't enjoy guarding the temple as ling vs a summoner
-I dont enjoy guarding temple as LM vs summoner
-I dont enjoy guarding setting up Turrets as rine vs assault
-I dont enjoy setting up Camps as hydra vs assault
-I dont enjoy guarding at vs DT when we have no detection
-I dont enjoy rebuilding cannons everytime DT busts in.
-I dont enjoy building cannons for my assims outside my base
-I dont enjoy building spawn vs summoner, so I will i get in a base race vs summoner, i will definitely win with my 15 ups vs his 20+ triple lane feed lings.
-Since I i dont think building defenses or guarding the base for the TEAM EFFORT in a TEAM GAME belongs in a fast paced PvP game, think every hero should be changed.

Summoner won't leave base until hes guaranteed an open swarm. Please cut out the noob talk scenarios, I really dont know who you have been playing, but its definitely nobody good. A good summoner will only leave for two reasons, top cap and to swarm in for the gg. Usually he will suicide the lings until your defenses are down and then come in for the kill. Why would risk leaving the base to swarm some cannons will 12 lings will get the job down with no risks.

As far as DT goes, when you have no detection on your team, and hes got 200+ mana with L3 and L4, and he knows he cannot get you at day or night. Hes going to base race you to death or try to kill you. If hes any good, you are going to have to sit at temple, espcially if he still has partners left. I REALLY REALLY highly recommend you play good people.

You can't be serious, lol, just stop i'm not even going to bother. When you dont even use spawns, you want to comment? Especially since you are self proclaimed best mech player. Mechs hard counter: Summoner. 3v3 all players are eliminated, just u and summoner left, you are going to tell me that you arent going to reaver OR your going to base race a summoner. Yea anybody remotely good will definitely base race a summoner, right. Btw, summoner with about 15 ups takes off chunks of health with all 12 lings attacking. I REALLY REALLY recommend you play good people.

Asinine points you say? After my analysis of the bat Moose and Iceman the champion of the op sen tournament agreed with me, i dont need you to cosign. I cannot take anything you say seriously when I'm from west server and overhear Maxx, albiet trash talking, you about beating you 3v1. You are decency right? If you are not, then i will retract this statement. The funny thing is this is a guy who wants to make a firebat into a hero dedicated for blowing up buildings, claiming LM the worst hero in the game, is op'd, and claiming archer, the second worst hero in the game, is op'd. Then i watched that replay (That is of course you are decency) of you as archer vs white.fox He was LM and you were archer, and you failed miserably, then ranted about the LM was op'd. That is typical inexperienced talk since the v1 days. Then you want to argue with me about the finer details of TS? I'm not even going to respond to you anymore. I cannot take anyone who holds these beliefs seriously. This is not a flame, I am not doubting anyones skill as i have never played you. These are just my beliefs and I am just receiting from what i've seen and heard.

This is not meant to flame. My point here is someone who holds beliefs of LM and Archer being OP'd when they are clearly not true, when you are losing games 3v1 with your friends, complaining LM is OP'D as archer and the dying to said LM, and we should have a hero dedicated to destroying buildings "In a fast paced PvP game!", which is ironic since you seem to hate buildings. I cannot take anything you say seriously, and from this point on I wont. I just find it VERY ironic you would call someones ideas and beliefs asisine when yours are clearly out outlandish.

Again, faz-, this is not flame, I just really suggest you play some good people and get a better grasp of the fundamentals of TS gameplay because your fundamentals and ideas of the TS metagame are a bit off. The best remedies for this is to play good people and get back to the basics of Temple Siege. Start with the tutorial, it is bottom left. Best of luck to you.

Post has been edited 9 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 9:55 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

ok i have a few things...

@genocidal. do you really think arguing with moose will make him change anything? you'd have to give him a reason like, "i've done a test of 10000 matches of this, and in those 10000 matches, noone ever nuked or successfully won as assault." no offense, but this is just the way moose is.

@faz. meh, i didnt read most of that, but the points i read were pretty good. i was never a fan of ghost, dropship, and dweb, where he could take out an enemy base when all the cannons and warp gates and such were still in play... kinda retarded if you ask me... if the game is balanced well, you should have to get through the defenses before taking out the temple, where as the old assault could just waltz right in.

@moose. so, i did this test of 10000 ts games... lol jk. actually, your ideas

that blitz idea seems pretty cool, the detonator, however, idk... i just feel like sometimes it hard to hit on the right time with the fuse. maybe if you had an effect right before it blew up to give the player a way of knowing, it might work better with the scourge. and dweb sair without a mana drain wud suck. maybe just a slower mana drain.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 9:06 pm by ShredderIV. Reason: wanted to add some stuffs

After hearing you say this I would appreciate it very much if you never posted in this topic again. It's probably been about 20 pages since I've seen any intelliegnt debate over the balancing of TS. After a certain point (well before the retarded concept art) I decided it would be best for my health not to even respond to the stupid things coming out of peoples mouths about this game. Finally after months of this Genocial,Faz, and Moose are having a lengthy discourse fervently giving specific examples to justify their claims, and you pop up all high and might like you have some kind of standing in the TS community and want this topic to go back to the same shit it was for the last 20 pages?! GET THE FUCK OUT!
You are completely in the dark with the TS version creation process so please stop talking. Urine ABANDONED the great game that TS was because he felt he had better things to do, and it wasn't that big a deal yet. The game was fun but there was a shit ton of bugs that kept competitive play from becoming a reality. On a whim moose fixed a few bugs and slapped M on the end of the file name. After about 20 of these the game started getting played non-stop because now all the heroes could be used, and capturing gates actually meant something. Moose eventually stopped due to disgust with the shit talking of just most TS players, and the increasing difficulty in fixing the bugs. Only AFTER TS become one of the #1 played b.net maps did urine decide to jump back in, and by that time the M versions couldn't be compared to what urine did in 1.4. They were never co-authoring anything like you seem to think.

erm.. Can sm1 please summarize this for me?
EDIT: oh oh i read smth
I didn't abandon it.. I just had better things to do**. :\

** i.e. school and work and shit and your mom OOH
Meh...
M versions were based off 1.4 . you must've meant 1.5... then we were going diff directions..
I didn't read anything.. but I feel that comparing the two versions is a logical thing to do.

Hello Unholy, Nice to meet you. I really Like your map. I am a big fan from west server. Here is the basic jist:

The new bat, that Moose has made is totally bad. Everyone has agreed, but how it should be changed we cannot agree on. Everyone complains that the Dship+nuke+web combo is broken, I however, do not adhere to this view. I really think people dont understand it is team game and do not want to build defenses vs nuke, when you have rebuild defenses,spawns,assims,and cannons and such all throughout the game. Though this is my opinion I am not saying anyone is wrong. I want the old firebat back, until we can get a better alternative to the one we have now because the M6 bat is completely useless. If you want to see why it is useless you can read my analysis.

** i.e. school and work and shit and your mom OOH

Lulz

If you want the old firebat back, just play M3, because nobody wants to deal with that OP and Imba nuke session. The firebat needs to be more skillful anyway, it is a splash unit after all and should be one of the fastest training units. It needs to have a skillful usage of its L4, not something it can point and shoot and destroy everything in its path. If the firebat had 25% exp, fine, give it a nuke, until then its way to powerful to even think about.

It is the freaking "IF" wars and specific situations which i have seen Faz get into with others many many times. They are mainly arguing wars and nothing is ever accomplished. Honestly if this was all over that new Bat was sux and the old bat was or was not broken that is a total freaking waste of space. Basically the new bat needs to be changed i would rather see discusion on how to change the new bat then freaking "IF" wars.




eh i arrived after Mt got started and urine was back arround discusiing things with moose and the community. I'm sorry i didn't have the history 100% perfect. I knew they weren't exactly co authorized but they did discuss much before their eventual split into 1.4M4+ and 1.5. After that things went downhill. Moose kept pluggin as he was talking of new changes and discussing much which sounded great but it never was actually developed. All that has been changed since then are bugs/a few spells here and there and balancing more or less. The changes he promised to keep up with 1.5 were never implemented.


To moose: Not everyone will like everything you have to come to grips with that. You can't please everyone there will always be those few that can't stand what you did. You basically need to take suggestions from the majority and try to work with them. If something fails revert back it won't hurt. All it is a setback. You have tried and failed here and there and have fixed many TS problems through this trial and error. If your not into fixing temple siege anymore thats fine but don't pretend to be by making these minor updates and leaving gaping holes such as the fbat and spawn system.

Take a look at o0MaXX0o's bat, the best bat in all of TS, and tell me he whores nuke. Ok? And the M6 bat is skillful? I think you need to do your homework my friend go read my M6 bat analysis. Moose,Faz-,iceman16, myself, and others have already discussed this and we have all agreed it was sub-par and open to ideas. We just disagree on how it should be played. Btw, the bat needs skills you say, again look at maxx's bat and tell me hes not the best, not just another nuke whorer. Almost nobody plays assault, the way he does.

I'm not quite sure how him playing it differently from the majority makes it balanced. You don't have to convince anyone that the old Assault did indeed have alternative strategies.

You are quite right I am sorry, let me elaborate. All I am saying people always go "OMG ITS NUKE! ASSAULT = NUKE OMGMGMGMGMGMGM". I am just saying thats not his main purpose, that is all moose, he can do great things besides:

.......

"Nuclear launch detected"

.......

He is not imbalanced, he just needs some tweaking. Like all versions do, i really dont think he needs a total revamp. Can we at least start with cloak discussion?

Honestly, at this point I just want to put out M7 because it's more stable. We need that testing with a clean version and I want to seige some temples myself before I revamp Assault or make other major changes.

Sounds good, What changes were made, if you already post can you send me a link .

They're somewhere in one of my recent posts. You probably ignored it like my ideas for Assault.

Sorry if that was insulting, but it's kind of true.

EDIT: There is the most recent one. http://www.staredit.net/160668/

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 10:24 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

Sorry if I came off that way . I will be more open to your ideas moose, please don't think I am trying to insult you or anything because I really enjoy the revisions you made to M3 and i think you should go along with that. I am just trying to make you see where I am coming from, if i am coming off as closed minded, i will be more mindful of your ideas and feelings. I humbly apologize. I will make sure to address everything you post and such, you have my word moose. I also forgot to mention, thank you for the update . (Also kudos on having the balls to reworking with the rine because i do think that hero could use some skill e.g: SHOOT MAH GUNZ, L4, SHOOT MAH GUNZ, L4, SPAM HP. LOLOLZ GUNZ,HP,L4!)

Okay, so here's my lame but easy and quick changes for Assault:
L1 - Put back the Corsair/DWeb. No mana drain.
L2 - Grenade. Longer fuse and stun time? It was 60 fuse / 45 stun before... so 72 / 60? (Alternative: the "Blitz" spell I described above.)
L3 - Still Firebomb. Longer fuse? It's at 70 trigger cycles now.
L4 - Can summon a second ghost. Increase Ghost HP? I did like the fact that Ghosts could be killed by Psi Storm.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 10:48 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

Do not even attempt to judge my play without ever being in a competitive game with me, that's just blatant ignorance.

Max sits in his base for the entire game and specifically hosts the versions that give essentially zero income from assimilators so he doesn't face consequences from it. I don't really give a shit about winning in a public match, especially after he already has an "oh my teammate dropped" excuse for why he lost. I play for fun. I don't play to win against immature 12 (if that?) year olds who are still talking shit about a public game 3 months after it happened and are going to drag out a game for as long as possible after it's clearly decided. If I really want to win that, that game is over with spawns or mass assims. It's also boring as shit to wait 15 minutes for your assims to kick in, I'd rather lose. Cat and mouse with a Volt in his spawn is fun. Building spawns/assims and watching the game end is not, I can quite literally do that with my eyes closed.

"Mechs hard counter: Summoner."
You're condescending to me? You've never seen vulture micro, have you? Summoner is the EASIEST unit to play against as a Mech if you have any skill whatsoever. After I can one hit his lings, his only chance to kill me is with a miracle unburrow surround unless he goes L4. If I have 75 mana, a surround won't even cut it. Temple Siege is not balanced for 1v1, so I'll ignore your stupid point about that. If it's a competitive game, I'd consider using Reavers. If it's a public game, I'll say fuck it and go for twin L3's to try to take down the temple before him, yes. If I lose, oh fucking no. I don't e-pride myself on my ability to win a StarCraft map. I play for fun and for good competition. If it's at the point where I have an auto-win opportunity, I'll go another route and keep the game going if it's proven challenging.

No, what I'm saying is what I said, which is not even remotely close to what you summarized, considering absolutely none of my points had anything to do with my "enjoyment" of the defense except Nuking.

Let me try to summarize, since apparently you can't comprehend a complete logical argument:
Defending against a Nuke Dropship is not even remotely close to defending against other attacks because it's preemptive defense and the only valid option is to build defensive structures. Against any other attack, there are equally good alternatives.

I don't recall claiming the Archer to be overpowered for a long while, if ever. I've said it's linear because L1 is the only serious option (again), but it's not imbalanced as a character, it's just a boring one.

The LM is hugely overpowered if it abuses spawn lanes and your teammates don't change spawn lanes well. I did my best the entire game to harass him, and he only had one of his team's lanes pushing there. If he splashed all 3 it would have been a nightmare, even as it was his EXP blew away ours. I don't think the LM is overpowered in a decent game, I've said many many times that it's simply boring as hell because it lacks mobility and offensive capabilities and must rely on teamsplash deny to match up, and is a nonfactor for most of the game.

And finally: I AM NOT ARGUING THAT THE OLD ASSAULT IS BROKEN. Did you catch it this time?

Cloak is not the problem.

EDIT:
The L1 will probably be weak without a drain or a slow. The L3 needs a detonator, it's useless against anyone good because they can outrun the scourge or otherwise dodge it (DM L2, LM L1)

Also, did you ever add the HP+20% for Medic L4? I can't find the changelog.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 10:49 pm by FaZ-.

It will have a slow. I should've specified, but it does. It will also be an actual Disruption Web.
Think old Assault L1 minus the mana-drain.

The only problem with a detonator is that it can be used with L2 for guaranteed hits.
Maybe I should even think of getting rid of Firebomb because it's too much all-or-nothing at this point.

Not yet. That might be worth doing before releasing M7. We'll see what kind of mood I'm in. ;o

First off. Please tone it down with the harsh language we are all civil here.

Second, Everyone Enjoys Mooses M3 version alot, you seem to be alone in the hate towards this map.

Second of all you admitted to losing 3v1, that puts alot of things into perspective. Again faz-, this not a flame, but your fundamentals are off again, Volt vs Mech is match of mistkaes and volt is not an offensive unit in the least, while mech is an offensive unit. From the way you say the match played Maxx would have been an idiot to rush you, so he punished you for your mistakes, as that is volts speciality capitalizing on mistakes and making plays. Wouldnt you sit in the base in 3v1 man, i mean it is 3v1.....what else could he do? You really need to learn your match-ups Faz-, it even says in the introduction to volt message when you pick him "Paralyzer/playmaker". Not "Speed Striker" or "Glass Cannon". You really need to calm down man, with the language because this a legit forum and its only a game.

Well it sounds like you don't win many games, and you match-ups are out of perspective. I REALLY REALLY suggest you play good people. Again, not a flame, but i cannot comprehend losing a 3v1 match that was so in your favor, as you seemed to painted so vividly for us. It is ok, we all have to start of somewhere. I don't think its a public game anymore btw, if you call your friends into the match agaisnt opposing enemy friends.

Summoner does hard counter mech, end-game mech takes to much collateral damage to effectively micro lings, and he cannot hit thru a well placed swarm.

Your excuse is poor for losing, if you want to win, win. Dont make excuses for losing. Spawn is a part of the game refusal to use spawn, is actually quite....I dont know..i guess bad. To each and everyones own.

As far as LM being op'd, I wont even bother going into that territory, we already discussed this.

E-Pride? Don't know where you got this from but....if you dont pride yourself on winning i guess you pride yourself on losing?

@Moose
Good start. But the mana drain was essential to bat gameplay, though the slow effect could compensate for it thats interesting, though this is good foundation. Though i am still against a direct damage spell for bat. The L2 is defintiely a boost, i like it. Moose i was also thinking, Could we give bat a different L4 is Ghost+Dropship was should a huge problem, i mean its something to think about. Overall definitely not a bad start. I still think carpet bomber is essential to his gameplay or else he becomes the average melee unit.

I mean i am just a gamer Moose, not a mapmaker but maybe you could think of a powerful L4 for him besides nuke, since nuke seems to be the core problem with DSHIP. In fact, moose maybe his l4 can turn all spawn like u suggested, Blitz, into his helpers, like a troop commander theme, actually that would excellent! What do you think!? Thats actually a good idea, the only problem is it is reliant on enemy spawn and could have potential for abuse. Maybe you could treat it as a "Transformation" meaning it has a cooldown, it might acutally give an incentive to assualt someones base.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 11:08 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

Evidently, these are the thoughts of someone who loses to spawn regularly, otherwise you wouldn't feel that they are so GODLY. 90% of the time I use spawn (unless I make to prevent opposing spawn) is for the meta-game process, such as if I wanted to cut them off and leave them stranded at temple while I'm free to take the map (which would obviously feed them, but gain me a strategic advantage). The other 10% would be to finish an already won game sooner e.g down to a 3v1. Or when I want to shut down the summoner who is suiciding lings continuously at temple.

No skill in making spawn? Wrong. That's one of the first big newbie mistakes and I'm not talking about a basic "stun while they are in reaver range". Ironically, the old Assault was easily the strongest hero in assisting spawn rushes and also godly in defending from them. That's the kind of hero I want to preserve in the assault. The kind of thought process used for this hero to beat uncountable odds against his hard counters while balancing his meta-game process takes SKILL. YOUR spawn ideas of making reavers and thinking "GG I WIN" does NOT. Actually, you were right on one thing: YOUR spawn rushes do NOT takes skill.


Ok, I know it's the usual "OMG IT'S SO OP" but then I read this:


Coming from someone who spams hp and suicides at cannons. Am I supposed to take these thoughts seriously? Judging from that comment I'm assuming your thoughts are that heroes like Spec Ops takes skill while Dark Mage, Summoner and Assault take none.

Assault takes a LARGE amount of skill, what people fail to realize because only one person knows how to play it. No, I'm not talking about the straightforward stun and attack. I'm talking about the type of things that separates the newbies from the pros. You do realize that just about EVERYONE thought this hero to be a complete waste of space until some people like o0Maxx0o actually used this hero for what it's worth and then the hero suddenly became OP. Of course it's going to look overpowered when playing someone extremely skilled at the hero.

Zero income? You had map assimed and one hit his Volt with your L1 tanks and still lost.
Generally people talking shit the ENTIRE game (and before), do NOT decide to "stop trying". Please, stop with that excuse and admit the loss.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 11:23 pm by Iceman16.

I assume that peoples problem with the fbat and nuke is when he goes around the side and back, and dwebs cannons and cloaks and nukes. An easy fix would be to prevent the dropship going around the sides. If that is too hard, have a trigger that kills all corsairs outside of the arena. Then people only have to make one or two cannons to protect against it. Adding a cost would make it take longer but by the time you are at lvl4 it wont be much of a problem unless it's a hefty cost.

And incidentally mech bike does totally pwn summoner.