This is true. I remember back when I was tracking usage statistics (around M2 or M3 I believe) it turned out that NOBODY in the 15+ games ever picked Assault.

This is because the old L1 was much too powerful and spammable. I mean Archer L1 spammable.

I noticed that you're analyzing the spells only by themselves. The slow targets are easy to hit with L1, or even better, L3. Maybe I underestimate the difficulty of pulling of an L2-L3 combo.

A lot of the damage comes from the Infested Terrans spawned at the center. Those are what tear heavy/medium armor apart when the concussive damage suffers massive cutbacks. (They also can't be upgraded.)

Assault with Stim is much faster than Medic. Micro challenge!

Assault is not alone in a chain-stun death to Volt.

Assault is not alone in losing out in net-mana vs. Light Mage.

He doesn't do any of this anymore?


Regarding the Tier List: Players can bring out tier lists all day. I doubt any of us would ever come to any sort of consensus on where everything belongs.

---

I can agree with change. My ideas:

L1: Grenade as now or D-Web Corsair as before but without the mana drain.

L2: Orb-Corsair as FaZ- suggests or a new spell.
Blitz: Transforms up to six of P7/P8's units nearby the Assault into Marines (18+2) controlled by the Assault for a few seconds. They are then removed and replaced with the P7/P8 units again.

L3: Use the Mutalisk->Guardian detonator as FaZ- suggests. (with a reasonable fuse should it not be morphed, of course) I hope Unholy doesn't mind becoming another unit.
Boost the upgrade bonus on the Firebats so they do 40 + 4 instead of 40 + 2.

L4: Allow two Ghosts.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 7 2009, 10:21 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

Some of what you say is true but I think you are missing some crucial points.

L1 was spammable, of course. Though L1 was never overpowered, simply because Mid-Late game knocks of negligible amounts of mana unless combo'd with the dropship, its mainly used as an annoyance factor and stop some spells and protect the bat, the new one is complete garbage. This was one of bats godly assist moves and part of what made him so good, the synergy with the dropship and L1 was a force to be reckoned with. This was more of a utility move, also it was used to offer the bat a degree of protection vs his hard counters. You can almost say the same about lings L1, it protects him from his hard counters Warrior,Bat, and Volt.

L2-L3 will only work on super slow units and even then, its still not guaranteed, mainly because of the L3 short fuse. These two spells do not have good synergy at all. Not to mention, nuke has NO synergy with ANY of his spells. The old bat could nuke a select few heros due to L1,L3,L2 having great synergy with nuke. The old Assault, L1 and L2 had great synergy with each other because they could combo for more strategic purposes.

Vs medic you are not going to kill him unless he is a moron I am sorry, especially a power med. Even if you and I debate this match-up, and you won out, it still doesnt address the fact hes garbage vs the rest of the cast of heros. Not to mention that the old bat was a huge medic counter, way better than this incarnation. The fact he has been reduced to this state lets some OP combos break out the gate now, such as Spec,DT,Ling.

You are right about the chainstun. Though when i mentioned the chainstun, it was to point out that old-bat was one of the few units able to escape being chain-stunned. I pointed this out to show volt went from a hard counter to soft counter, and since old bat was one of the few units able to escape chainstun, he lost his versitility.

Vs. Light mage, ok you definitely got that one concerning net-loss. I just mentioned that, because the old bat never lost out on mana vs LM.

Vs. Summoner, no he cannot do the things he used to do anymore. New bat is near uesless vs summoner. Yes he can L1 but if someone is proficient with summoner this wont happen at all if ever. Carpet bomber was essential to goblin/demon control. He was always useful vs summoner all times of the game, compared to say, mech. Mech, for instance, hes very good vs summoner early and mid-game due to goblin control w/ vult. Though as the game goes on longer he will be taking to much colateral damage to effectively control goblins anymore, Old assault doesnt have this problem. Think of Old Assault vs Summoner the same as Spec ops vs Volt, both match-ups Ops/Assault do not counter them but are useful vs them none the less.

The point is new bats spells do not synergize (is this even a word?) with each other well at all. Also the bat was essential to stopping over powered combos. I think someone, maybe iceman, pointed out that all you do is chase with scourge and hope for the best. This is not something that is fun nor has any useful purpose. The Det-packs and what not are useless because they arent useful at all because, as i mentioned earlier, Buildings arent integral to the TS meta-game as of now. Ok you blow up all the cap points so nobody can assim safely, besides that he will be nothing more than a mere sprite on the map. You can argue that you can use them to enter inside the enemy base but, this does more harm than good because of base feeding.

In regards to nuke, everyone here seems to see it as "OMG ITS OVERPOWERED BECAUSE [Enter reason here]". I do not think its overpowered at all, this is just me and i am not always right. In all honesty, it is not bats primary purpose to nuke unless hes countered by all three which would mean Hydra,Mech,Volt. Nuking has two primary purpose: 1. To end the game vs staller heros (Volt,Summoner,DT come to mind), 2. Apply pressure in-game and psychological (I.e: Dang its night time, and he has nuke should i leave base?). Add in the fact the two most popular heros counter nuke (Ops and Ling), nuke isnt always a viable strategy. Realize that a completely failed nuke attempt costs 300 Mana and a potential life: 100 for nuke, 120 for ghost, 80 for carpet bomber (325 if he owned through web). Even at full 450 mana that is a huge blow, so imagine nuking at with 160-200 max mana. If everyone complains that it is overpowered then i suggest two things: 1. Make cloak researchable for 100-150 minerals 2. Take out cloak.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 7 2009, 11:48 pm by Mini Moose 2707. Reason: Please avoid giant useless quotes of the entire post above yours

Also most of the time that people complain about anything about the assault, it's because they don't know how to counter correctly e.g Summoner's counter to nuke. When a hero is rarely used, it's going to be common for people to have no idea how to counter properly, when you are playing people using heavy counters like Archer and crying that "ASSAULT COUNTERS MY HERO!!" then you know something is up about the mindset of the firebat.

If you want to see the bat's FULL potential and not just a stunning and nuking hero, then watch o0Maxx0o (regardless of his attitude). He is easily the best at this hero, and probably the ONLY person who knows how to play this hero.

Also the dropship as an L4 for marine is underpowered, although I do like the idea of completely reworking this hero.

Re: Old Assault L1.
I feel it was too powerful for an L1. We can go back and forth all day. It really is a matter of opinion.

If you feel the fuse for L3 is too short, then all you have to do is say so. I want to read constructive posts, not bashing and ranting. This is about improving the game, not who wins an "argument".

How can you say that the old L2 had synergy with Nuke but the nearly identical new L1 does not? It would appear that in a few places you claim what worked with the old L2 suddenly stopped working when it became the new L1.
If the idea is to stop or slow the other hero from reaching the Ghost, both L1 and L2 will contribute. Though, I will admit, not as well.

Re: Summoner
In my opinion, Summoner's exponential growth is more of a problem with the Summoner himself than deficencies of other classes.


I never did say that I feel that I got Assault right on this first revamp.
Any response to my ideas for Assault revamp #2?

Sorry if you thought I was ranting and bashing forgive me. I am not trying to win an argument at all, I am just pointing out flaws of the new bat thats all. My posts are a bit lengthy because, I want to describe things in detail and so you can my point of view, and not jsut say "LULZ DAH NEW BAT SUCKZORS". I am not launching a personal attack at all.

In regards to your feelings of corsair being op'd you can say the same for Lings L1. Though as you stated its all of a matter of opinion.

On topic, the problem with L1 and L2 having synergy with nuke is that the nuke itself is useless because once you are inside the base, you are focused on PK'ing and dodging because of temple hugging and the ghost is never safe because of low HP and no dropship, and no old corsair. Even if you were able to pull off a nuke attempt the L2 put super slow units at a disadvantage, as you said, but everything else with decent speed or high speed will still reach in time. The new L1 and L2 cannot combo at all either, thus reducing its synergy. The old L2+L1 combo made the fuse on L2 longer for strategic purposes.

Problem with the L3 is the L3 itself, It being scourge. It is a good damage spell no doubt, but in its current form its bad, and I really dont think the bat is meant to be a powerful hero at all. It was a utility hero, and could kill when it needed too.

I think people complained because of the lack of playing against a good bat, and the main concern vs bat it seems to be the nuke. I suggest making cloak researchable at 100-150 minerals and reverting him to his old state.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 12:34 am by Genocidal.Legend.

The only problem I have with the old Firebat is that it made you not able to attack. That's simply due to features of StarCraft. Nukes take 20 seconds to launch, the map probably takes 30-60 seconds depending on your character to return to the base. So you HAVE to sit at/near your base or build a ton of defenses. Yes, you can say it's part of the game, but that doesn't mean that it should be. No one wants to sit around doing nothing in a fast paced PvP game.

The idea of no cloaking or expensive researchable cloaking simply doesn't remedy this if there's a dropship in play. Most of the time the problem with stopping Assault is that you're too far away, not that you can't see the ghost.

I agree that my suggestions might not be the best, but I'm trying to create spell combos without needing the CB. The Assault with a detpack could be able to set up nukes well without having to have the carpet bomber, which was the idea behind that. Adding the razings bonus, he'll be very useful in taking down areas and capturing gates while staying up to par in EXP.

Adding in having two nuclear silos and two ghosts, and you have a potential for a very useful character. On top of that, two nukes launched simultaneously will only give one warning, so a good Assault will definitely be able to break in, especially with the decreased Nuke cost. If killing the warp gates actually becomes intelligent, this could be a good character. If it does not, forget about it for reasons already stated.


I think whatever is done with Corsair, whether it's Orb-like or back to L1; the actual physical web needs to stay. At L1 with a 5 second slow and the web itself, that'd be reasonably powerful.

I don't think the grenade is that great of a spell, whether at L1 or L2 in either of the old Assault versions because after early-game it's pretty useless. If you make it L2 and a long stun again, with this build it might be good because then it would dramatically help to set up L3/L4:

What do you guys think:
L1: Corsair: D-web + 5 second slow if enemy hero is hit.
L2: Grenade: 8(ish) second stun, kills spawns.
L3: Firebat+IT cluster with mutalisk detonator.
L4: Ghost spawn. Max of two.

Two Silos, Nukes for 10/60 that can be bought ahead of time. (Does not need L4 for silos).

Thoughts? I guess my main thought is that the L3 just doesn't seem to fit with the hero. It's a completely hit or miss spell and it's tough to land because of how slow the scourge is. With L1/L2 helping to set it up again, you probably won't need to upgrade the spell's damage.


Also: Carpet bomber for Marine is not underpowered... 4 stuns for a ranged hero, plus transport, plus microability versus anything that can't hit air? =o

L1: It's honestly easier to just keep the web there and slow enemies inside it. ;o

Are you proposing that the L2 stun exceed the duration of L3's fuse? Well, if it's a detonator, I suppose yes. IMO, free hits with L3 would get a bit ridiculous. ;o

Any response to my ideas for Assault yet? Anyone?

Anyway, the change list looks like this now:

I seriously want to know what took this so long to be done.

lol because a lot of trigger work is involved in accomplishing that kind of task.
Edit: lol at moose quoting me, haha.

If you are guarding base, that means the bat is either on field or inside his dropship. Both of which are vulnerable. Bat is off the field if he is in dropship, if he sending a dropship with ghost inside but hes not inside that means he is on the field where he is vulnerable, use teamwork to kill him. In a 3v3 game, that means both bat and the one guarding are pretty much off the field. Building defenses can split among 3 players, it is a team game. The two most popular heros counter nuke. Splitting mineral costs among three players means it softens the blow of the cost of making defenses.

The fact of the matter is you are blowing nuke out of proportion, yes it is powerful, is it unstoppable certainly not. You have to build defenses for summoner busting into your base, you have to build defenses for DT rushing your temple, You have to make assims outside your base with cannons to protect them, teams have to gather minerals to make spawn (with the minimal most effective spawn costing 100 and just climbs higher, and usually you are going to make more than 3 of whatever spawn you are using, 2 if its reavers), why is it such a big deal to make some cannons to secure your base?

Breaking into a base has huge negative ramifactions, and is not worth it unless you are guaranteed to win. Breaking in is only worth it if you have DM or Volt, or you know its a GUARANTEED win. If the opposing side are not morons they will benefit from the enormous base feed. Good luck waltzing in two ghosts who are slow as molasses, no transport, with no web or CB to protect them. Also breaking into a base with such vulnerable ghosts is definitely not worth it at all. Maybe with 10/60 and two silos but then ghosts just feed so dang much and are so frail.

Totally agree with you the physical web needs to stay, you are right. The current L2 is just useless, I think you said that in an earlier post and i forgot to support you on that.

Carpet bomber was essential for Fbat gameplay.

Carpet bomber for L4 with rine is underpowered because, by the time he gets it the other heros will have sufficent counters to him (Sans New bat) and it doesnt have good synergy because to chain stun you will need 240 mana at least, thats way to mana intensive for a stun. Not to mention he has no web or anything to protect the bomber from return fire from enemy heros that can hit it. The thing is, that rines damage is too weak to finish off something with HP, he is +2, while bat is +4, and if he does want to use sniper rifle he would need a whopping 200 mana. Will be good vs ling and maybe non HP warrior and fbat. Of course it is a good assist, i mean its CB, but it being 120 mana and with rine spells, it doesnt have great synergy. And If you make the CB a level 3 spell on rine it becomes broken. Think about how also rine cannot manual through opponent stuns thus if an enemy has an opposing stun CB becomes a waste.

And his two teammates are just nonfactors? He can sit his dropship+ghost behind your base. As soon as you leave, you get nuked. If you don't leave, he's EXP'ing and your team is facing a 3v2. Add in his old L1/L2 and he's a great assist.

The two most popular heroes counter nuke [if you leave them sitting at your base]. You forgot a part of that.

It's very easily stoppable by 3/4 of the heroes. It's just boring as shit to stop and I'd rather lose than have to base-sit in an action game.

Cloak. If you're about to feed, there's 13 cannons lying around. Run into one of them. Tada. If you break in through cannons, you can just divert your spawn to another path, or just simply break in one of the lanes where they control the warp gate. You're saying to be logical, but you're really just not thinking. It doesn't take a massive break in to sneak in a ghost or two.

Then give nukes to the Marine and find a decent L4 for the Firebat. Because having both of them together makes for a really damned boring strategy for that hero.

You really don't need to chain stun. 4 stuns plus a high damage teammate is a kill, no problem. Does it have great synergy, not really, but it's still a very good unit for any hero, even more so a ranged hero.

The old Assault does have to be in a dropship to put his Ghost in a Dropship and send it wherever he pleases.
And if he's any good at all, he'll be doing that at night.

And the other team spends these minerals on upgrades. (or assims and upgrades) Give it enough time until they don't need nukes anyway.

No one has claimed such a thing. Ironically, that is blowing our criticism of Dropship + Nuke + Dweb out of proportion.

I think that you're underestimating costs. You need total nuke coverage from EVERY side of the Temple (since he would be getting around with Dropship) such that the Ghost's nuke cannot get within range of the Temple. This is not one or two cannons, especially for the north team.

Lol...
Firebat L3: Carpet Bomber
Firebat L4: Old Marine L4
Rine L3: Sniper Rifle as is
Rine L4: Nuke
Eh?

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 3:13 am by Mini Moose 2707.

Since when does rine have to sit at base to stop nuke? Doesnt ling have to sit at base vs summoner because his teamate doesnt counter summoner? Ok it is boring. I am sure it is boring for Ling and LMs to guard base vs a summoner and his partner(S) because Ling/LM's partner cannot stop the summoner from massive base rape? Wait, I got an idea. You could build/re-build cannons to defend against the summoner for totally raping your base, but nah, nobody wants to do that in a fast-paced PVP game. Right?

Oh yea waste 120 mana just to see the ghost rammed into a cannon, awesome strat, definitely not an useless L4! Oh wait, nobody wants to sit at base to guard nuke, but now they do because you punched a huge hole for base feed, so now the can base feed and guard. Definitely good synergy no?

Ok, let me get this straight, so what you are telling me to do is walk the bat and the ghost, without CB, past a cap point potentially not mine, into the base past spawns, cannons which i am assuming are busted through as you mentioned, attempt to walk my bad and ghost past potential enemy heros who maybe potentially base feeding in the hole that is punched through because it is safer to base feed than to be out in the open, past Ling,Specs Mines,DT teleport/Stun,Mechs mines/massive vult speed,Hydra archers,Summoners lings,e.t.c and nuke. This doesnt sound very viable or reliable except vs. morons or complete noobs, maybe you should come up with a different idea.**

**Btw if you are going to reply to the above paragraph this is assuming its not vs total scrubs and morons, and no outlandish scenarios. We are talking about people of equal skill level. Ok.**

I already mentioned CB being a godly assist, good to know you agree.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 3:28 am by Genocidal.Legend.

You're not getting it. The Firebat and his ghosts are not attached at the hip. Attack at night, they never see it until it's too late. If you take out a pylon, the ghost is in. If you take out the cannons, he'll be able to get in for a while. Hell, a dweb or two gets you in fine as well if you take some shots with Firebat.

You don't send feed through the empty hole, you break a hole behind an enemy warp gate so the spawns never get there, or double a lane if need be. Basic strategy against anyone who's base sitting...

If the ghost is going to die anyway, why feed? I'm pretty sure cloak casting cost was reduced when dropship was removed (if it wasn't, it should be), so it's not like you're in any hurry to launch the thing. If you see a threat, hide in a corner. If he's sitting at his base, oh well, you tried. He sat at his base for 2 minutes, you exp'ed. Guess who gets the better of that deal.

You sure about that?


Read Below.


The thing is useless, read the disclaimer, this will only work vs morons and noobs. Your whole scenario talking about if the gate is capped, what if it isnt? Then what? Double lane feed, no thanks I will pass for the dead giveaway and pumping a potential power hero on the other team. Your whole scenario is based off guys being complete morons and completely situational scenarios. A ghost on foot is a no go, the whole scenario you just painted so outlandish and involves giving the other team some sort if advantage (Base feed, double lane feed, ghost feed e.t.c). Is it REALLY worth base feeding the whole team just for a really bad chance at nuking. Base feeding a the guy sittting at base for two minutes, and then him potentially killing my ghost, yea hes get the better end of the deal. The whole point is with CB/Ghost your foot is already in the door to nuke, and doesnt give the team any huge advantages, and offers the ghost protection.

Your whole nuking scenario is so situational to be solid and reliable, rendering the L4 near useless. Plus it all centers around potentially base feeding another team which ,which again, has such serious negative effects. You also recommended taking shots with the firebat and dweb which is totally risky and not worth it, and will usually result in death. Admittedly, Yes taking shots would be better than busting in but then you cannot support your ghost from spawn and such because you have to run back. These scenarios are outlandish. You also seemed to forget that I mentioned that i said this is In a game with good people, not morons, base feeding in a slight attempt to nuke is nowhere close to worth it I'm sorry.

Also given what you just said, since you seem to think that whole above scenario is plausible, you would need to re-build/build defenses to stop the ghost from walking through right? Well, Let's think about this for a second, if your whole suggestion is plausible, as you seem to suggest, check this scenario out:

As a good player with the assault I would want to destroy the enemy pylon and cannons, so i would always have access to the enemy base without the annoyance of of them always rebuilding pylon, because always having to re-nuke for access wastes times and alerts enemies. Time for a quick role reversal: Now as good player(s) on the opposing team of that good assault, that means I would have to rebuild defenses accordingly, since with two ghosts the enemy assault is always a threat and can always take out the cannons pretty much anytime he wishes and can take out my temple in one go with two ghosts. Okay now....

....The question i propose to you is why can't you build defenses for ONE ghost in carpet bomber, if you would have to build defenses for TWO ghosts on foot who can take out your temple in one go. You claim "Nobody wants to do that in a fast paced PvP game!", but you have to if you dont want to lose, and when you win its all the more satisfying. Teams have to build spawn to win, teams have to build cannons to win, you need defenses. Why can you not build defenses for a ghost in carpet bomber?

To Further put things into persepctive here:

Archer Temple = 2 and 4/5 of an Archietect
Golem Tribunal = 3 cannons
Mystic Temple = 4 cannons
War Factory = 5 Cannons

-These spawn all help you win don't they? They are all employed for strategic purposes, and cost two cannons and up. Defending your own temple while assaulting the enemies temple/heros. Same concept with cannons, you build cannons to defend temple from enemy Assault/Nuke while you attack their temple/heros. Do spawn defend the temple? Yes. Is building spawn boring sometimes? Yes. Do you need to guard the spawn sometimes in order to win? Yes. Do you need to build spawn in a fast paced PvP game? Yes.

-Lings and LM's, and Old Assaults have to guard base from summoners if there partner(s) cannot handle it effectively, is this boring? Yes. Is it needed to survive and win? Yes. Would you need to build defenses to stop the summoner from completely annihilating your base? Yes. The question here is why can you not build defenses or guard from nuke, if you have to do it vs summoner. Is guarding vs summoner boring as hell? Yes. Do you need to build defenses in order to stop him? Yes. Are defenses needed to win vs summoner in a fast paced PvP game? Yes.

-People have to build defenses against a DT base rushing your temple to death, and Ling/rine/hydra/Dm and in desperate scenarios old Assault are usually given guard duty because as we all know a Sin left roaming around in your base is bad news. If you have no solid detection, the you REALLY need to build defenses around temple and entrance, in an attempt to drain his mana (Using L3 to enter, and L3 to keep attacking the temple because you rebuilt cannons on both) and discourage him from his temple assault. Why can you not do the same vs Assault with carpet bomber with ghost? Same thing with sin, if you have to guard and build defenses with Sin, why can you not do it with Assault and CB? Is guarding against an assassin boring? Yes. Are defenses needed vs Assassin? Yes. Is it needed to win in a fast paced PvP game? Yes.

-To a lesser extent the same applies for Hydra in the above scenarios. Archers hydra summon busting into your base, do you need to defend? Yes. Guarding temple vs Hydra spawn boring as heck? Yes. Will u eventually need to make defenses? Yes. Do you need to guard and defend in a fast paced PvP game? Yes.

-Is guarding against nuke boring as hell? Yes. Do you need to build defenses in order to stop nuke? Yes. Do you need to build defenses in a fast paced PvP game sometimes? Yes.

Are you finally getting the picture? I would also like to point out with the two above scenarios is that, Sin and summoner are ALWAYS going to be semi accessible to your base in one form or another, same for hydra but thats later in the game, conversely once you build defenses up vs a Assault/CB he cannot nuke effectively for a long time, if ever.

Just Some Food for thought.

Post has been edited 12 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 5:31 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

ok enough the bs seriously i come in here to see whats been going on and there is a arguing war. get over it. If you can't get over it go freaking play each other in an older version if you must absolutly see who is right gd.


back on topic. Moose are you actually going to make any useful updates? I mean we waited how long for that update and there was only minor adjustments? Seriously when do you plan to make this evolve? There was alot of talk about changing the spawn system and the capping system and neither has been done. Do you still plan to do these or were they just all talk?

I'm sorry if you've been busy but i noticed both you and unholy have been slacking. This is exactly why i didn't want to see you two break up from your mapping. You both have rerouted and pulled each version away from eahc other to make two distinct maps and it has just pretty much shut down. Temple Siege is a great game but amoung competitive players it is slowly dieing. I've already talked to quite a few people that would like to see change, but i'm afraid what they want is an impossibility.

[quote]
It is not an argument at all. The point is the bat has been made into something that is totally useless, we have all agreed on this. We are just tossing around ideas. They refuse to revert back into its old incarnation because of Nuke+DS, which they claim is broken. I do not know mooses reasons for being against the DS+Nuke combo. Faz-, reason seems to be "Nobody wants to build defenses or guard in a fast paced PvP game!". The only idea people came up with is a Assault dedicated to blowing up buildings which is even more useless than its current M6 incarnation. I am all for change and new ideas, but the old bat was not broken people just don't understand how he is played and call him cheap.

doesn't*.
Honestly, it's fairly obvious what I meant.

Depends on the meaning of "totally broken".

About as useless as a fast class running away from Archer's or Volt's L4, DM missing her L4 cast or Assassin missing with Decap.

Actually, I gave ideas which were for the most part ignored.

Once you advocate for the old Assault a certain number of times, it ceases to be "tossing around ideas".

The shitstorm that gets kicked up as a result of even minor changes to single classes (let alone a total revamp) is far from motivating. It honestly would be easier to get people to accept a new map than change an old map. I hate human nature sometimes.

The TS community (well, much of it, anyway) needs to take a good, hard look at itself before asking why I might not want to go out of my way to help them.

Post has been edited 9 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 8:21 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

I'm tired of arguing about this, the old bat was fine, I dont get any good reasons to why he was broken except "I dont want to make cannons!", when you have to make cannons and rebuild defenses, and base guard for three other heros. Your guys logic is amazing. Okay you're right, Old Assault was so broken and unbeatable, and we are all too lazy to make cannons in a team game, and we are willing to guard against DT's, Summoenrs,and Hydras but not a Assault in a DSHIP. You got it.


Minor changes? You changed a perfectly fine hero into an useless one, when you take a good hero and butcher him there is going to be a bit of shit storm. This is not to offend you or say you are a bad map maker, M3 was a HUGE step up from MT you get all the kudos in the world for it. Though the revamp of a perfect hero into a useless one not needed. Iceman16 a tourney champion agrees with me, same with o0MaXX0o (Despite his INSANELY Inane comments he is good), and others here have complained that the new bat is terrible. I must be on to something if champions and others are complaining and vouching. Hell moose you even agreed it needs change. Maybe the old assault needs change but not a total revamp. The bottom line is the hero was fine the way it was, and the problem with it was nuke. We dont need det-packs, we dont need two ghosts, we dont need a hero dedicated to blowing up buildings. What we need is to get to the root of everyones complaint about the assault: the nuke. Regardless of what CB was integral to assaults gameplay, removing it makes the firebat useless. Web was never overpowered, yes maybe early game but by mid game it becomes a minor annoyance and turns into a utitlity move, His old two was fine and combod with the L1 for strategic purposes. Firebat is not, again i repeat, NOT a power hero. He is utility/playermaker/mapcontroller.

Going along with what killer_sss was saying, we need useful updates and changes. Not minor bugfixes and such. Please, seriously revert the Bat back to its old incarnation, make the cloak researchable. The hero we have now is total garbage, or at least revert him back until we have a better alternative. When you revamped that bat, you let some overpowered combos just run rampant. Seriously, just do it.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2009, 8:24 pm by Genocidal.Legend.

The old Firebat is not broken. It can be countered pretty easily by building an absolute shit ton of cannons, which no one who's any good at the game enjoys.


If the gate isn't capped, then you have all 3 gates. Assim and win, easily. How in the fucking world is assuming the opposing team to have captured at least one warp gate "outlandish?" That happens in at least 95% of games. You still seem to think that spawns are somehow getting to the guy playing base defense, so you're clearly not understanding the strategy. Whichever lane they have capped, you break in behind it. This also has the added bonus that they teleport right by you and won't see your assault.

No it isn't, see above.
No it doesn't, see above.
If you're a newb, you might die to cannons. I think part of your stipulations were that we were going to assume that players aren't terrible.

I do it with Vulture all the time, and he has like half the life of a Firebat and no stun spells if he gets caught heading back to base. You don't need to support your ghosts, that's the whole idea. You can force the enemy to defend by attacking, not by whoring mana and just flying around everything and everyone. It takes time to break in, so the enemy can defend. That's not the same as "defending" a nuke with 20 seconds of warning, which essentially means waiting in your base.

The point is you don't have to build defenses everywhere if the Assault doesn't have a dropship, you just maintain security of your choke points. Just like in any melee game, you hold your positions while he threatens to break though. If he threatens another side, you react there. If he does break through, then you defend for a bit until you can resecure your defensive choke. The point is that you know about this ahead of time because he can't just fly around your initial defenses. You KNOW when he gets through them because he's nuked, and THEN you defend. Thus you aren't required to wait at your base all night every night, and you aren't building preventative defenses, you're rebuilding already assaulted defenses and have a legitimate chance to kill the Firebat if he joins the assault. If he doesn't, he's going to be using a lot of mana trying to break in.

I don't use spawns, they are also boring as shit and require absolutely zero skill to use. I win a good deal more than I lose, so evidently no, you don't need to build spawns. Also: heroes has an e in it.

A summoner doesn't kill your temple in 20 seconds unless he has about 80 upgrades. Nukes do. A summoner's units without a Summoner are almost useless in base assault. A Firebat's nuker in a Dropship without a Firebat is still ridiculously powerful.

Have you ever actually tried this strategy? It's my favorite for the Assassin, the first TS "build" that I made, and it simply doesn't work well since the 10,000 HP change. I usually have L3 and 80 mana by the first night, but it takes forever before you can start hurting the temple. In any case, you have about 10 minutes of him pounding on the temple before it goes down, and that's assuming that he can cast L3 infinitely, which is definitely not even close to the case. So you have a huge amount of time to tech to defensible spells and then send the Assassin away without any need for building defenses.

Unless the Archer pulled a really fucking fancy proxy hatchery-->Nydus canal warp to bypass your initial cannons, you have plenty of time to deal with him before he gets anywhere near your temple. On top of that, you should know he's going L3 within the first 3 minutes of the game, and set yourself up to deal with mass hydralisks if you can. Then you get EXP like crazy when he tries to attack.

Now, let's compare this to the other scenarios.

Summoner: "He's sending lings in suicidally to die without dark swarm, lol."
---- "What a retard."
Or..........
Summoner: "Summoner is out of base, plus tons of lings."
---- "Okay I'll take out the lings, you go for the defiler when he tries to run."

DT: "Oh, he's going for the temple, we'll need to do something about that."
---- "oh, i'll get L3 for detection long before he can kill it, no problem"

Hydra: "Hydra went L3"
----- "okay, let's flank his attack on our front cannons and kill him before he can break in"

Assault: "Assault is going nukes"
----- "Well, unlike all of these other scenarios we won't have time to react, so let's just build 6 cannons each."
Or, if you don't build defenses...
Assault: "Nuclear Launch Detected"
----- Well fuck, let's make sure another one doesn't hit too by building a shitload of cannons.
Or if you basesit all game:
----- "Damn we just got 3v2'ed and i died, why are you sitting in the base?
----- "Okay they assimed everywhere, you're still in our base?"
----- "gg, at least we didn't lose to nukes!"


These scenarios are not even remotely close to the power of a dropship+nuke. Can you counter them by building defenses? Obviously, you can turtle against anything, but in the case of Nuke+Dropship, it is the ONLY viable defense if you want to keep the game remotely close to even, and doing that slows down the game immensely. That is boring, and that is why the Nuke+Dropship should not be together in a fun competitive game.


Apologies on the length of this, there were a lot of really asinine points to reply to and I wanted to address them all.