It's true, LM is by far the most useless hero (before version 1.5 which I have not tested). Against good players it is absolutely worthless and the only time I see it ever useful is against newbs who find it to be the most OP hero in the game and charge head on into it. It is an absolute non-factor in just about any game (not including special circumstances) and is by far the least useful, followed by Archer.

How does it add Strategy to the game? How is spamming reavers that do a TON of damage strategy? It takes almost no skill at all and can kill many heroes. It can kill all of its "counters" before they can get near the lm. The lm can usually kill a dm or medic before it can curse/disable him. The only hero that poses a problem to the lm is probably only the assault, of course, I may be wrong...

Anyways, I think reavers ruin the game. Most lms multi-lane by massing to one lane. That blocks exp from getting to the opponents. If the opponents try to kill the lm, they are likely to die because the lm has leveled too much.

Maybe we can replace reavers with an attacking move to use in combo with level 1.... And maybe lower the energy of hallucination, which I found very useful. It helps with spawn and can distract the heroes (i.e. archer's mutas target the hallus instead of the lm).

Ok, this is the reason you can't base all your info from a point of view when you obviously dont know how to counter something... there are many lm counters...

1.Mutant l3
it may not seem like it works that well, but lm's reavs rarely get much damage at all on mutant, and if he gets a couple hits of his l3 out on the lm, the lm dies easily.

2.spec. ops
the drone, sci vessal, has irradiate which can be used to majorly harass and even sometime kill lm to the point where he can't even exp, since he generally has a low hp, especially since not many ppl up hp on lm.

3. assault
especially with his new l3, it's extremely hard for lm to dodge it, and if he uses l1, there is a chance that it will still hit him and absolutely rape him, also d-web

4. volt
his l3 absolutely owns lm completely, unless the lm hasnt casted any spells in a while, or has extremely high mana, which is hard to get before the volt gets l3

5. assassin
assassin vs. lm at night... lm cant hit the assassin at all, and assassin can freeze him, even get him inside cannons due to his l3.

6. kinda dm
if the dm gets a curse off on lm, lm is basically dead, especially if dm has l4... then lm is absolutely dead.

Thats actually a good amount of counters to lm, and most people forget early game, when lm can be completely useless, since his l1 is so easy to run away from.

dont forget medic Lv2!

Assassin - Cloaked, one hit L4.
Warrior - High hp, high damage + L4
Spec Ops - Won't even bother, LM has no chance.
Archer - Can take out LM easily early game. Late game would be too hard because of the muta's short range.
Mutant - LM DEFINITELY has no chance against the most powerful late game hero.
Assault - Web the LM's mana below 80 (so it can't cast L3) then keep stunned in a web mana drain.
Mech - Mech has superior range with L3, LM has no chance.
Dark Mage - Any curse that Dark Mage casts would easily mean dead LM.
Medic - Self Explanatory.

Volt - The only hero the LM hard counters is Volt (good LM players). Volt has no chance. If the LM goes all out reavers, then the LM is a bad player and the Volt will destroy it.

So that's 10/10 heroes that dominant a reaver spamming LM and 9/10 that destroy ANY type of LM (or at least pose a large threat). This isn't including Summoner since that would all depend on the match up and other variables

When I first started playing TS it was frowned upon by most players to go LM because it was considered OP and rigged especially with an L1 that made you invincible. The actual case was, everyone thinks that running head on at an LM and dying because you had no plan, makes the hero OP. The hero is a joke in my eyes, and if the other team chooses this hero, I always consider an automatic non factor.

the strategy i speak of is moving spawns arround and splashing them. yes you can move them arround if you want but its more productive if you actually kill them. 1.5 is even more fun due to the more powerful spawns (still waiting on those improved spawns promised by moose a while back).

There is so much you can do by moving spawns arround. Splashing may seem cheap but usually the opponents will gain the upper hand if they play it smart. Not to mention 1hero vs 3 is usually not good for the 1 hero. if done properly you can deny good exp just like moving them arround normally except they wont always be able to kill them further down the path.

A LM that team-splashes 3 or even just 2 lanes, denying you EXP and shooting himself up high is never a non factor. You want to team up on the LM? Good, he'll walk back 2 spaces into his cannons, while his teammates backstab whoever he hurts, or just freely exp.

All of your counters rely on the LM being a fucking idiot and moving away from his cannons. Even if you catch him with a huge stun or something, he's within range of his cannons, and you can't touch him. A mana-LM can L1 and L2 spam and have you dead long before you can deal enough damage to kill him, especially with his invincibility dodging spells.

So how do you beat it?
- Deny the LM Exp by forcing him to change lanes. Even still, if his team is equally competent he will be ahead of you in Exp.
- Reaver Spawns, another boring as shit strategy.
- Get map control, assim everywhere, get high upgrades, and win a war of attrition that takes fucking forever because you can't get any decent experience.
- Upgrade to or spawn Hydras/Goons/Goliaths.

None of these take skill, they just take patience. I'd rather lose than win in 40 minutes by doing something that I can do with two fingers. I also refuse to play teamsplash LM, because it's pathetic and boring as hell. If you don't play a teamsplash LM, the character is an absolute piece of shit.

If the LM is going to play even remotely like any of the other heroes, it needs a teleport. I've made this argument before and the only counter I've gotten that teamsplashing is just part of the game.

Well, no shit. Change the game.

the thing about the cannons is bull... if you're good, there's always a way to divert spawn from lm so that he can't safely splash exp while inside cannons, no matter what points the team with the lm has captured... and this is the thing, lm will eventually have to leave cannons, or he basically loses the game, UNLESS YOU RUN HEAD ON INTO HIM LIKE ICEMAN SAID!!!!! especially beause he's slow, and all these counters can be used on a lm after he's forced outside of cannons, which is very possible to do... or in the case of sin, isnt even necissary...

What don't you get about the LM being the most useless hero in the game? Everyone except volt can own him, even then a GOOD volt will not let the LM pump up to 20+ ups in time to kill L4.

If you are dying to a LM then you pretty much are lacking in skill.oint Blank. Yes he is powerful, Yes He can splash, Yes he can Deny lanes. But his killing power sucks. LM is pretty much a unit to punish noobs with and hero mistakes, or defend the temple from mass spawn. Though he is not a hero killer AT ALL hes just too slow and to predictable catch someone who is playing at a high skill level.

M5-M6 Bat needs to be reverted back to the original bat. L1 is ok, his l2 is useless, L3 will rarely catch anything but slow units and noobs. L4 is greatly dimished with out dropship or the old web. The new bat is just horrible and now some op Combos can rampant without the old bat (Spec,DT,Ling comes to mind or War,Ling,Spec ops).

He doesn't need to kill you early to win. He EXP's up, gets huge damage and huge mana, and then suddenly he has an 800 damage spell for 50 mana, and 450 mana. Does he still not have killing power?

Then he walks to your base and starts ripping it apart with Reavers. The only reason the LM isn't hugely overpowered is that his reavers shoot before they can be assigned to attack a certain enemy and more often than not will attack cannons or spawns rather than enemy heroes.


+1 on new bat, unfortunately.

1. reavers almost never get full damage against an opponent, especially if they're running away, then the do about 1/4 of their overall dmg.

2. if you're not a noob and harass the lm enough, he can't exp huge and get high dmg and high mana, which was exactly our point in the first place. Usually when i play as lm, i either get huge exp because no one attacks me, or i have the lowest exp because someone harasses me, and therefore i suck. It's just that even with high exp, lm is still very easy to kill unless he has full hp ups, because of his low speed. so even if you have a mech, spec. ops, and volt, and all kill the lm once, even though he might alos kill all of you once, he's still eliminated, and thus is pretty much a non-factor, like iceman said. I also trust iceman because i know he's not a noob. He's pwned me when i was lm many a time, and he did it quite easiy. this is why i don't believe lm is op at all.

Breakthrough! VOLT L1 BUG IS DEFEATED!


The Volt L1 bug can be caused by casting L2 immediately followed by L1.
For those interested in the technical trigger side, what happened was basically that the beginning and end of L1 were running immediately. This happens before the Scourge were even created by P7 or P8. The reason that the band-aid of removing them with the L1 end didn't work was because P7 or P8 will make them AFTER the player runs the Volt L1 start end due to trigger order. IE, this means that the scourge it wants to remove with the L1 end haven't been created yet! Thus, the Scourge creation trigger runs and JYD Scourge fly around until the next L1 cast.

Interesting bug. I was growing attached to it. I still apparently have to fix this. EDIT: Fixed that. I'm a bit out of the loop on discussion due to my dip in movation, but you can expect M7 to be released soon.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 7 2009, 3:08 am by Mini Moose 2707.

Fix the firebat.

You're going to be a lot more specific than that. I'd expect more from you Iceman.

He was specific in previous posts. He feels that his concerns are not getting enough attention.

On that subject:
+ dropship cannot be left out of this equation.

This was very important to the decision. I am open to new changes or spells for Assault, but the old one's problems need no further elaboration. I'm sure they can be found several times over in pages past.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 7 2009, 4:18 am by Mini Moose 2707.

Well, I have a few minor changes that will add some versatility to the Assault.

Detpack for L1. -.-

For L2: Keep the Dweb how it is, but don't remove the spell when the spell lands. That way it can be used for strategic purposes as well as for the one-hit slow+drain.
In addition to that, my previous suggestion to have the Corsair as a pet Bomber like the DM's Orb. I do really like this idea...

For L3, make a mutalisk->guardian morph detonator.

L4: Two nuclear silos, two max ghosts.


Also: I hope you're adding the razings bonus for this version, finally.

It really is quite annoying how you constantly feel the need to insert "my idea that I've already stated" like it's a required prefix for everything you type.

Everyone loves this new Lv1 as it is. You seem to be the only person griping about not being able to hit anyone.

A very good idea.

That should be saved for M8 as it will drastically alter gameplay.

Why would I bother to repeat myself or go and search for what I'm talking about when I can just say "my previous idea" and have people know what I mean?

The new L1 is decent, it's just not really useful for any lategame purposes, especially since he has an almost auto-hit slow that also mana drains for his L2. There's no use for the spell after that except to disguise it as the L3, and since the L3 should become a mutalisk, that won't work anyway.

The razings bonus was already "saved" for a few versions, if it keeps getting put off it will never be added.

THE COMPLETE M4-M6 BAT ANALYSIS

*WARNING* This post is long. This post is also is full of common sense, logical conclusions, and is anti-noob. If any of these reasons scare you please do not respond *WARNING*

I am tired of this debate. Make no mistake the new bat is horrible, dumbed out, nearly useless unit. I am going to explain why it is such a bad hero, and should be reverted and changed to the old one.

The old assault was a powerful unit in the right hands, though he was probably the least used, he was still a VERY good unit and essential in countering alot of combinations. Old Bats main use was his versitility and usefulness and consistency all throughout the game early,mid,and late. He Always was on the field and never considered a non-factor. The old assualt was easylily a high tierd unit, admittedly he took A LOT of practice to master to that level. Now the new one is a joke and I will gladly explain why.

Spells:

L1: This spell is EXTREMELY useful early game. No doubt, has great potential for early game set-ups regarding capping and team set-ups (If you have a power on your team this thing completely gimps mech too). The reason why it is useful early game is because everyone rushes to center to cap. Therefore your team and the bat can get some early kills. Outside of set-ups early game the stun is pretty useless since the stun time is so low, and the bat loses his ability to chain stun. Could be used to set-up for L3 but again, the stun time is so low and you cannot combo L1 and L3 so landing the L3 becomes damn near impossible. Make no mistake though the corsair for L1 beats this thing out hands down because it has way more useful applications than this L1. By all means its not useless at all, just not as good as the old one.

L2: Absolutely useless. The mana drain is low for a L2, the slow effect is negligible. The old corsair kept bat safe from all melee attackers and he could save other heros from melee attackers. With the old corsair the bat could use the the corsair for insane partner plays. For example, the old corsair could let the mech feed vs. mass spawn since one of mechs primary weaknesses was mass spawning. The old corsair also let the bat become the undisputed king of spawn battles because he can stop the other spawn from attacking, this was one of his major assests vs his hard counters. The old corsair combined with the old L3, let ranged heros absolutely rape whoever is under the L1+l3 combo, mainly Rine and Archer. The old L1+L3 combo was essential for killing some units, and helped the rine overcome his mech hard counter weakness, and helps archer kill the mech. The old corsair also let enabled you to cap outpots. The new L2, this thing End game this a non factor. Regarding scourge as the old L2, it was better because the stun time was longer and it could be combo'd with L1 to make the fuse about 15-17 seconds for even more strategic purposes. This thing is garbage, make no mistake.

L3: His new bread and butter damage spell. Powerful yes, is it good? Yes. Are you ever going to land it? Nope probably not. Is it good vs mass spawn? Yes, Insanely good. The only thing you will probably hit with this is Medic and LM, and occasional volt. Every other hero is too fast to be caught by this or has some kind of way of avoiding this spell. The fuse is just too short and you have to be very close to land it putting you in harms way. This spell also dumbs down the bat into a subpar power hero. The old L3 was needed to stop some insanely overpowered combos and added to bats versatility. With the old L3, it always made the bat a threat, kept him out of harms way, and kept him safe from everything that would hard counter him. In a match-up of say Hydra,Volt,Mech, this thing is absolute garbage. Against that same combination, With dropshop, even tho he is still countered he can still stun from a distance and assist. Now he has to be in harms way to stun, which is no good. Carpet bomber trumps this spell 10x fold simply because of its versitility and set-ups with web. Dropship was essential for keeping bat safe and from being completely obliterated from his hard counters. Now you pretty much have to spam HP to survive, essentially turning you into a poor mans warrior with a crappier stun. Dropship is so much better and is so integral to the Bat's gameplay, this spell really doesnt cut it, and if you arent playing complete noobs, most likely this thing is going to cut it.

*Note: L3 becomes a good cannon killer though with moderate ups.

L4: Without Dropship the viability of nuke is pretty much gone. You would have to bust in to someone base to nuke and guess what, that actually HELPS the other team feed unless you have a DM and Volt on the same team. If you do have a volt and dm on your team while you are busting in then you arent thinking about nuking, you are going in for a PK. Otherwise this thing is only good for nuking caps ,which is useless, or getting inside the base but again, busting into someones base usually helps them base feed. Unless you busting in for a guaranteed win, in which case, whats the point of nuking anyways? Essentially a useless L4.

The new Assault match-up list:

*WARNING* If you reply concerning my match-up analysis please excercise common sense. These match-ups are considering the people are on an EQUAL skill level, not a pro vs some random or outlandish situations, example: LOLOL BAT WOULD OWN MECH WITH 100 UPS!!!!. Okay? Thanks. *WARNING*

Vs. Medic:
Unless you have insane ups on L3, this is pretty much a stalemate, until she gets FH, then you are owned. The old bat was always good vs her because he could kill her could always get to her very fast in CB, this was one of medics few dangerous units to face,more so than mech and ling. With the new bat she laughs in his face, disables him, then proceeds to pounds his anus into oblivion. Assist on her with L1 all day.

Vs. Assassin:
He completely owns you now. Assassin vs old bat was a stalemate because the bat couldnt kill him and vice versa, but now sin destroys him. Yes u can manual him through stun at day, but eventually when he gets decap, its game over for you regardless of day or night. Since new L2 is garbage and no carpet bomber, harassing him is useless and you are never safe. Just stay far away from him.

Vs. Warrior
This match-up has the potential to go either way. You have to land an L3 first though or you are owned. Admittedly one of the funner match-ups with the new bat. Though, no doubt, Warrior has the upper hand here, due to his speed and godly stun,dmg, and HP. Old bat, pretty much destroyed him, and 90% of the time was safe from him, except for the suprise L2 at night before CB. Though, most likely vs this guy you are going to get owned if hes not a total moron, his L2 decimates your L3 in terms of speed and probably equal in damage.

Vs. Volt
One of old bats soft counter units destroys him now, he was a soft counter because CB enabled him to dodge stuns (especially L3) and L1/L2 kept the bat safe always out of reach of volt, but one combo landed from the volt usually resulted in death, also not to mention high ups Old assault had the potential to destroy Volt, though the match-up is always in the volts favor. Anyways, M4-M6 Now the volt is a str8 up bat hard counter. Although, in all honesty, the new bat now can kill him with the L3, but the volt would have to be a moron to die to this. Only way you are really going to land the L3 is after a whiffed volt L4 or during a whiffed L2. Add to the fact without the carpet bomber or the old L1 he can chainstun you to death. If he lands an L3 on you, prepare to lose a life. Essentially stay far away from him, and wait for the oppurtunity to use a L3 vs him. End game, just run you cannot kill him, period. Assist on him all day with l1 though.

Vs Light Mage
It is actually a tad bit harder to kill him now with the new bat IMO. Though he is still owned regardless. Then again who doesnt own this guy. I will say that End game you probably wont kill him. Also since you dont have CB, you will be on the receiving end of huge reaver damage, and you cannot stop the reavers because your L2 is useless. You cannot kill him with regular attack because he will use L3+L1 to rape you. Just use L3 to own him, preferably off a cliff. If the LM is good he will stop it with L1 though, with you losing out on 80 mana.

Vs. Mutant
Old bat was ESSENTIAL for countering this guy and some overpowered combos concerning this guy. Now just stay far away, stay so far away, you have no chance unless you have a secondary stunner on your team to help you land an L3. Even if you could Land an L3 on this guy his End Game L4 obliterates any chance of you killing this guy, and will most likely kill you with the L4. L3 does rape him, but if you are able to land L3 on him alone without any help and kill him, tell him hes a noob and he needs to read the tutorial and pat yourself on the back.

Vs. Summoner
The old bat didnt counter this guy, but was extremely useful vs him. The old bats primary role vs this guy was map and goblin control, and saving your team from getting raped from the lings. CB guaranteed your safety and L2 protected you and teamates from being owned. Bat was an excellent harass/control unit vs the summoner. Even though summoner can counter nuke it was still was added pressure to the summoner because a base bust in could result in a gg. By no means was bat a summoner counter but he definitely made things hard for him. The new bat? Just run when you see lings, spam HP, Get high attack, try to own with splash, and try to harass with L1, once the summoner gets L4 dont even bother just run and L1 them. Mainly, just run when his ups are to high and farm for reavers.

Vs. Archer
Still your hardest counter, its just worse now though. Stay far away, there is no hope in killing this guy. Unless he never gets hp, then you can L3 him eventually and cause good damage, especially with high ups. Cannot nuke because of L2. Own his archers with L1. Though still stay faraway his killing power is WAY better than yours. Overall just stay away, besides assisting on him.

Vs. Dark Mage
Old bat and DM could always go toe to toe. Now your only hope is to land an L3 which isnt quite that hard but considering mael and her curses, you are pretty much owned. Without CB and old web you are dead to Mael, L4, Snare, and L2 and the usual DM shenanigans. Again, a well placed L3 will end her fast. Assist all day on her with L1 tho. I guess you can use L2, to stop her from escaping and L1 again.

Vs. Mech
Old bat's other hard counter. Though Old bat had godly assists on him (Dship+Web gimped him vs team ranged). Now you only have 1 assist on him. This guy was always a hard counter to bat, just in M6 its just insanely worse. With the garbage nuke, your trump card is gone. CB kept you out of harms way from this guy. Now he just blows you away, with every spell. Just stay faraway spam HP for survival. On a good note, you can L3 Mech and Tank mode all day since they are slow as molasses, and the IT's will harm them immensely. Dont even bother trying to L3 a vult mode mech unless you have a secondary stunner.

Vs. Spec Ops
Old Bat always owned this guy. Good fortune is upon him, because now its your turn to get owned. Sniper rifle, will guarantee he wont die by your L3 and he will most likely hit you with huge damage in the process from sniper rifle. You cannot chainstun him anymore, Also Mines will tack on damage during your approach to him while he is shooting you. Though he still killable, make no mistake, he will definitely make it hard and most likely if you are able to finish him someone on the other team will most likely finish you afterward. Also he has carpet bomber as an L4 so, good luck killing him end game. Good thing your scourage only costs 25 to kill the bomber . Though assist on him all day with L1 till he gets dropship, then just run. CB + ranged = gg for you.

Vs. Mass Spawn
He actually gets a boost vs mass spawn because of L1. L3 rapes it so bad even with moderate ups.

*NOTE: Again, Keep in mind this is theoretically the new bat vs these units and both players are of EQUAL SKILL. The point is, this new incarnation of bat has no good solid match-ups at all, even a lowly LM can kill him if he is smart and the bat isnt on a cliff*

The Conclusion

I really do not see the M6 bat being of any use, honestly. From the way he is built he seems to be a sub-par assist character and a sub-par power character mixed into one. The fact of the matter is mostly every character is better than him. The old bat's main strength, again, was his sheer versititlity on the field. The new one doesnt excel at Anything at all, except maybe vs mass spawn which others can do 10x better and some for less mana. It is just bad. I do not see why he had to be changed at all, or at least into his current incarnation because it is garbage. If you argue hes an assist character then why pick him, when DM and volt are better at everything he does. If you say hes a power character go with Ling or mech. If you say "Well hes a hybrid of power and assists" go with warrior, he has a stun and can destroy cannons, cap, and everything. If you say "Well he has nuke!" you will get one of these ".......................". This new guy is useless and needs to be reverted or changed ASAP.

To further put things into perspective I will create a tier list.

TIER LIST

Top tier:
Mutant
Mech
Medic

High tier:
Old Assault
Volt
Assassin (night time)

Middle Tier:
Old Spec ops
Spec ops
Warrior
Dark Mage
Summoner*

Lower Tier:
New Assault
Archer
Assassin (day time)

Lowest Tier:
LM**

*Summoner is middle tier because it is so easy to own him with reavers, without reavers however he is easyliy top/higher.
**Yes he just sucks that much he belongs in the lowest tier, though he easyliy one of my favorite units.

RESPONSES *Note: Not too important just my opinions on what has been said*




*NOTE: I do not know what "problems" you are referring to with old bat. there are only like 3-4 units who cannot stop nuke Sin,Warrior, and mech (cloaked ghost, and web stops mines from going off). No offense to anybody at all, but if you are complaining about nuke, then just get better at the game. It really is not that hard to stop 3v3 (in 2v2 there is some problems admittedly, but again a good combo can effectively stop this). If Nuke is that much of a problem then just make cloak researchable for like 150 or take it out. Honestly, I cannot remember the last time i have lost to a nuke. Also in my experience, the people who complain about nuke are the ones who cannot stop it because lets say his partner who was a ling died. It's not The Assaults problem the ling F'd up, and you and your hero cannot stop the nuke. It is a team game, some heros are good at things others aren't thats why teamwork is essential for Temple siege. Last but not least this is why you do not random because if you random, you end up with garbage hero match-ups. If you have to hang around the base to stop nuke so be it, it doesnt hurt gameplay, its a part of it. Also if you were smart, if the CB is around YOUR base attempting to nuke, that means a couple of things 1) firebat is vulnerable outside the ship or inside 2) Or most likely he is inside his OWN base because he doesnt want to get owned because CB is integral to his survival. Meaning, two players are off the field, which is an even trade. Common sense. Like I said its a team game, and lastely the two most popular heros , ling and rine, counter nuke so whats the problem?



Complete garbage besides the L2. Buildings arent so integral to TS gameplay you need a spell to destroy them, and like i said before if you are busting into somebodies base then you making it easier for them to feed. This new bat you are proposing is even worse than the current M6 one, and is not versitile at all. All it does it kill buildings and drain a bit of mana. End game it's useless plus, there is no point in killing enemy gates, you always want to feed unless its a SUREFIRE win. Just in my experience you usually want to PK, not aim for the temple unless you are totally sure you can kill it with minimal temple hugging resistance (DM and Volt, Help with this immensely).

Just make cloak researchable for 100-150 minerals, to solve the problem of brokeness in M3 versions and below. As an added bonus, if the Assault decides to rush nuke he will need to research cloak before he can use it to its full potential. Then give rine back his L4. To be honest a dropship for 120 mana is totally underpowered.


I agree completely.

Post has been edited 30 time(s), last time on Jul 7 2009, 9:12 pm by Genocidal.Legend.