I don't see how an LM is capable of taking down an effective Medic team, you seem to be forgetting that a Medic also has disable which is what truly makes the other team need to rethink their tech path.

Generally, the more popular a hero is the more overpowered it is, or at least the easier it is to be decent with. That is why Mutant is so popular in games, and also why I try to incorporate the Medic into all my serious games. This is why faster units such as Warrior, Spec Ops, Mutant, Mech and Assault were so commonly chosen in MT. They were completely overpowered to other heroes such as the DM and LM.


4. FaZ- was saying that Medic is very linear concerning leveling, which I then replied saying that so do the other heavy spell casters such as DM and LM as well as claiming that the more supportive it is the less of a tech path it has, which is why LM has a better tech path than Medic and DM.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 12 2009, 11:42 am by Iceman16.

4. Soooo... How is that any different? Summoner also basically has 1 tech path. You never see any 1 going for summoner's l2... You're also saying lm isn't support now??

And look at my earlier post edits.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 12 2009, 8:46 am by ShredderIV.

"2. See my explaination post. And lm l2 plus slow medic equals dead medic before she reaches lm for disable."

A medic isn't going to charge at an LM with 200hp while trying to cast disable. 1000hp is plenty considering reavers do a base damage of 100, so a MAXIMUM of 400 damage before it cannot cast another spell. That's assuming that the LM is in the open with no enemy spawn, otherwise the reavers probably wouldn't even hit the Medic considering the Disable has a such a long range. That would also only be for early game since Medic will quickly obtain full heal anyway.

Summoner would easily be one of the best soloers. My claims were that the 3 most heavy spell users also happened to be quite linear for tech paths, one of the reasons being because they cannot go intensive HP heroes, for obvious reasons.

Well, if that's only early to midgame, why did you state that you couldn't see a lm taking down a medic team at all, based on disable... Also, many lm's will have some amount of ups by the time they get l2, so that 400 Dmg can be at least 600 easily, plus l1? Big dmg. And I was stating summoner as a response to your logic.

I said that would only be early game because after that the Medic would have full heal and would make your reaver argument invalid. The damage on the reavers isn't a problem, you give them 20 ups by early game and that would be at least 1200 damage if they all hit that Medic. Okay, I'll just be safe and heal up to 2000hp with my L1, no problem. Lm's L1 just immobilizes itself for an easy disable since the range of disable > range of LM's L1.

Summoner isn't primarily out of base and isn't as mana intensive as some of the other heroes. Yeah sure, having more mana = quicker rate of replaced lings but I know for a fact that summoner is capable of winning without ever putting a civ into mana since it is more mineral dependent.

You're both missing the point, and you're both arguing over unrelated bullshit.

If you think the LM only has one tech path, you haven't seen Dragoons used to their full power. I'll agree though that Reavers are overly powerful; if you follow the v1 thread I've been bitching about Reavers for months. And almost no one gets L4 as a LM, I don't think I've even seen the spell cast since before Moose started mapping TS. It still very obviously has Protoss Ground and Reavers, though.

I don't know how you can possibly say the DM only has one tech path, it's one of the more versatile characters. You can go mass mana/damage and L1/L2/Ensnare as an attacker, you can go anti-spellcaster with L3, you can go L4 to counter physical heroes, or you can just exp multiple lanes with Orb assistance. You haven't seen many good DM players I take it, judging from how you think it's so useless.

Medic counters LM incredibly well, okay, very true. That doesn't make it overpowered, it gets absolutely destroyed by characters out of base which do more physical (non-spell) damage. Mech, Warrior, Marine, Firebat, Summoner, tank Hydra, etc. It can't stand up to those for long, which should be the case. [/end of your arguments]

Giving the Medic a good L3 is definitely a good idea of compensation for nerfing its L4. I have said that in the past, if I didn't say it here.

In saying that we need to BALANCE the Medic, what needs to be talked about foremost is balancing what a Medic can do. NOT balancing it in relation to other characters. I think most have agreed by now that the L4 is overpowered, and both Unholy and Moose have talked of dropping it, so there's going to need to be some compensation somewhere because on the whole the Medic IS roughly balanced.

A Medic can go tank with L2 (if it has +5), especially against spell-based opponents. Or it can rush L4. That's two, but it needs other routes as well, especially seeing as I'm the only one I've ever seen pull off a Disable-Tank Medic well.

One of the main reasons that a Medic's L4 is so viable is that it has no real use for its mana. Only 1-medic at a time can heal you, and having more is just asking for them to be killed. By the time that healer is done, you've regenerated 25 mana. Disable is definitely an awesome support spell, but you only need it if you're being bothered. If a Medic doesn't have L4, the player is EXP'ing just outside of cannons. If he does have L4, he's saving mana to use L4. So Disable doesn't see as much use as it could, because the Medic is so focused on getting to L4. As I've said in the Strategy section, it's a "Lategame Hero."

The L3 is nearly useless until lategame when there's tons of mana to go around. I've yet to see a good replacement suggestion, the best I've thought of is converting medics into ghosts that shoot a few times. I have another idea that involves Disable moving to L3, though. That will be in my big post. =o

Okay FaZ-, first you claim that LM has a linear tech path, which I agreed with, then you say that the argument is about LM having only one tech path, which is quite OBVIOUS it doesn't and no one had mentioned.


Once again, no one said it only had one tech path. Sure, massing damage can be considered a tech path, but that relates to its L4 anyway. L3 is not a tech path, you just level the spell then mass mana like all your other 'tech paths'. L4 is not a tech path, it's the main route. Gaining Exp from multiple lanes is not a tech path either. Nice argument that DM has more than one tech path, next time don't name things that aren't even close. Tech paths are supposed to branch off from each other, not be a direct path to the next spell. Also, Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said DM was useless and thanks for the attempt to degrade my skill, no matter how indirect it was.


Why would a medic be in a 1v1 against any of these heroes, use some common sense.


Okay, you want to give it compensation for balance. Right.


Sure, if the L4 is dropped altogether of course it would need compensation.



Okay FaZ-, seems like you are the only one that knows how to play a power medic well, nice work. I love your reasons for your arguments, they are so modest.

1. No use for mana? Its L1 serves it's purpose before you get FH and L3 practically gives away any spare mana to allies, which COMPLETELY makes your argument invalid.

2. Disable only needed for defense? So much for being such an AWESOME Disable-tank medic!

3. Of course it's a late game hero, I doubt it would take a strategy section to figure that out. Disable isn't as used as it should? Do you understand the capabilities of this spell?

I really hope you aren't serious, because any respect you have left is completely gone if you are.

This is my comment posted yesterday in my first post that started this argument. Quite clearly no one had read it then, and still is quite clear that you still haven't


This is YOUR comment a day later after arguing about Disable not being useful enough, as well as turning down my suggestion:

Now this is my original comment, along with your reply which was given only a few posts later:


FaZ-, you're a joke.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 12 2009, 11:38 am by Iceman16.

Oy. In order, since you so love taking everything completely out of context.

With the LM, there's obviously two tech paths with basics in regard to upgrades: Reavers and Protoss Ground. Realistically in a game, Reavers are the one used by smarter players, as I said. If we're talking about modifying the game, though, which we are, it very obviously has two tech paths that are already made, and when talking of what could be changed in regards to LM, that stands out.

As far as the DM being useless, I thought you were the same person as previously in this thread; that was Maxx though, my mistake. As far as tech trees branching from each other, you're going to have to explain how that could possibly work in Temple Siege.

Because L4 Medics stay in the same place, and they EXP as fast as possible. They generally don't pick who stalls that. Do you run away anytime you have a bad matchup in a lane? Obviously not, so you're going to be facing some heroes that you're weak against. Do you think a good LM is going to pick a fight with you? Obviously not, but it will happen sometimes.


I'm very clearly talking about an L4 Medic, not a Tank Medic. If you read the paragraph that you quoted, you'll see that I already countered all three of your points, so I won't bother repeating myself.


As for Disable as an L3, I just came up with a fitting spell idea for L2 as I posted that reply, so it did completely contradict something I said previously. It happens, I change my mind on some issues that I'm not sure on and this is one of them that I'm back and forth over.

Finally: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

The part in the bold is where I put the wrong information, it was supposed be about the paths being linear. I have edited the mistake now. I had previously mentioned before that comment that was quoted, that they were linear, which shows that 'one tech path' was never my intended direction.
Okay take Mutant for example. It could decide to have huge melee upgrades, stay in L2 for a long duration of the game then lead up to L4. Another idea is to have average melee in order for a very powerful L3, since they have no effect on each other, both spells branch off away from each other.


You are claiming that it dies outside of base, while I said if you used any common sense it wouldn't be wandering out to danger. The whole idea of the Medic is to be a heavy support hero, not to go wandering out of base looking for 1v1 battles.

No FaZ-, no.

1. You claim there is no use for mana besides L4. As I said, Medic's L3 pretty much makes that whole comment invalid.

2. Read again. You point out Disable is only good for defense, which by that logic, I point out that a "Disable-Tank Medic" is bit of an oxymoron, unless you plan to only play defense the entire game which would be quite a bad route.

3. So apparently Disable isn't as useful as it should be. Last time I checked all heroes used spells, and all could be disabled. Not sure how it can be any more useful there. The Medic L4 has nothing to do with it, one heals and one disables the enemy's spells, what's so confusing?

Good job at missing the point again. It just further proves that you really have no idea. The point isn't that you contradicted yourself, it's that you KNOWINGLY took someone elses idea and tried to claim it as your own in less then 24 hours later. This was after I said many times to read my post again, which I doubt you had even read correctly in the first place. It's about how oblivious you are to things right in front of you, not about changing your mind.

At least this is your first direct reply that you haven't tried to degrade my playing. Only took your 7th post, that's quite impressive!

1. Iceman, you're getting rediculous. Even when I leave, you still argue your life away with someone else. You're not always gonna win an argument.
2. FaZ, you made very good points. One thing I would like to add is that, in regards to mana, I have never seen a l4 rushing medic leave it's farming lane or anything to l3 an ally.
3. Seriously iceman, you busted on me earlier for trying to make fun of you, then you go and do the same to faz... Just stop spamming the forum.

Not really. No one was talking to you, but once again you just want to have the last say in everything and now claim that I'm spamming the forum with my discussion. Learn what spam is, thanks. Oh btw, I don't see how FaZ- is the victim here. He's the one saying that I am playing the wrong version and playing with newbs (read in between the lines). I highly suggest you read what is actually being said before you suggest that I am making fun of someone, after two people have tried to degrade my playing and intelligence.

(And yes I do realize that this actually counts as spam, but I await your inevitable reply that will attempt to once again put me down. Even if nothing I said was directed at you or not).

I feel the recent posts here have become less and less about the improvement of Temple Siege while becoming more and more about proving each other wrong for whatever reasons. The cooperative and constructive spirit has diminshed. You are more than welcome to continue this route of discussion... in private messages. There's been quite enough of it here.

I agree.... i read the last page and just got bored and skipped most of it...

Your arguments are currently of no help to "balancing" the medic....
In fact, I'd rather you guys discuss whether we should do the following for Medic's L4
1. Make it so that allies heal at increments of 20% (so if its health level is 20-40, they'll heal to 40% Hp)... the medic will be fully healed.
2. Make it so that allies heal at x amounts of level higher than their current level... the medic will be fully healed. (I'm somewhat against this cause this'd be a lot of work XD... and "x" is an undecided number)...

Another thing that's been bugging me is the Dark Mage..
Should I implement the new L1 that I was talking about earlier? .. because I have recently played a game, where my ally was DM, and she didn't seem too weak at all...
Also, if it spawns broodlings, she could consume + ensnare... and as I was playing against a DM, ensnare is a really good supportive spell.. better than I've expected..

Assault n Engineer will face more changes... mainly their damage being brought down back to 16+2 and 24+4 respectively. ... 11+3 and 24+6 is just too much. Their HP's will probly rise again.

Lurker's current ability to double experience needs to change.... but I don't know how.... :C well maybe it doesn't I dunno...

Finally, somewhat in reference to the LM's linearity (fancy word #1) I have implemented the following to LM:
1. LM's L1 is now completely combo-able with all his spells. (This means that it will not disrupt the other spells' timing, and can be casted whenever you wish as long as you have the mana)... The other spells are not combo-able.
2. LM's L2 will now spawn reavers under him if they were unplacable at the corners. So it'll always spawn 4 reavers...
3. LM's L3 is the same except it will spawn an invincible observer (which will be constantly ordered to the LM).
4. LM's L4 will now spawn 4 waves of 4 reavers (instead of 5 waves of 3 reavers).

I think that this'd make L3 even more potent and give LM some more versitility. It'd also help against assassin/lurker/and others .. but whether it is too OP or too unfair for these classes remains to be scene (Fancy phrase #1)

Where can I get the latest version of 1.5? Is it the link on page one?

No it is not.. if u want it I can PM it to you.. so PM me for it...
It'd be the version before I changed LM that i'd give you .

For the medic, make the spell heal to hp ups + x. This will actually encourage people to get Hp ups rather then use FH 3 times. Also, the other idea seems like you are halving the power rather then giving a well formulated substitute.

I still think the L4 for LM should be changed. Before I get any "wtf, you must be playing newbs if you don't use L4!" comments, I want the spell changed not because the L4 isn't useful, but because it's essentially a copy of its L2. One idea I have had is to make the L4 a transformation (Dragoon perhaps?), although you may be out of units for this to work correctly and it may actually make the LM too Op (but even that can be correctly balanced).

Edit: Actually a reaver transformation could work as well, but I'm not sure what else could be used.

^ good idea with the LM's L4.
I hardly ever see L4 get used or go for it myself. Like ice said, it is just an economical version of L2 . Most players seem to max mana b4 they get L4 & then u dont really need it anyways... those three civs are probably more valuable as hp ups in late game.

Maybe L4 could be some sort of mana shield (i.e. some damage taken goes to mana instead of hp)? Dont know, but I'll think on it
Transformation sounds cool too, but there are already a couple of those...

For lm's l4, I think a transformation is too much of a copy of volt and mutant. A good idea would be to do something that's a combo of reavers and normal Protoss ground upgrades. this would also encourage him to split upgrade and not just l2 and mana.

Edit: Another good idea could be to give him a l4 that helps him to get away from opponents, since he usually, unless he hp ups, has very low hp. Something such as a scout that he turns into that does 0 dmg but allows him to run away more easily. This would encourage the l4 more, especially since lm is also really slow.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 13 2009, 5:00 pm by ShredderIV.

Light mage could make a very weak "light copy", normal high templar. Then when you cast l2, your copy also casts l2. Being weak and unable to cast l1, your copy would die quick, but it serves as a ranged or copy kamikaze attack.

Or it creates an observer/scourage/shuttle? when the projectile touches a foes, it covers them in the light barrier for about 2 shots each and at the same time spawns 6 reavers around the outside that shoot them.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 13 2009, 6:53 pm by FlashBeer.

FlashBeer's first Idea is an interesting one ... Especially since I have no current use for the normal HT... The main problem is that what about LM's L3?? I can understand why L1 working for your normal HT be OP.... but L3 would also kinda be OP.... then we're left with reavers again for L4... it is a VERY interesting idea but I'm not sure if it'd change LM's strategy/linearity much. Not to mention that HT has no attack....

well it IS possible to let the HT also be able to use L3...... maybe a lesser version.. where it also spawns 8 dragoons around it but will not bind anyone with hallu dragoons.


Shredder's idea is also good.. as it'd make people who has L3 (which'd've went for protoss ground) have an option to continue on to L4.... It is probly not in anyone's best interest to go for reaver ups and L2 + mana.. and then save 6 civs to get L4...