The anti hack is obsolete anyways, just remove it. I still would like to have the screen-moving still in the game, but maybe as a spell.

Also, I think there should be a split, and not a mixture of versions. With all the hype, v1.5 was VERY disappointing.

That's a low blow, CAFG.

You know very well the way I map. Remember v1 and v1.2? They were all full of glitches and imbalances..
I wouldn't have released the beta version if I didn't feel that you guys should get a chance to have a say before everything is finalized. That's the reason why it is BETA...

Remind me next time to not release anything until it is finalized

v1 was the beginning, and v1.2-4 were not as bad as 1.5, you just couldn't pick some characters because they were stupidly weak.

v1.5 was like a final project you had all semester to work on, but put it off and frantically slopped something up the night before.

Take what you will from my comments, but I hope it results a better map.

I definitely think a lot of the changes in both maps were needed, and for the most part I've agreed with almost every balance change that's been made.

Some of the ones that Moose made in particular I want to address, after playing 4-5 games as marine/firebat.


Assault
- Firebat L1 seems pretty cool. I am a fan of the small stun, it can be useful and is very micro intensive, and having the duration less than the fuse makes it not ridiculous to play against.
- Firebat L2 should drain mana slightly faster for non mages, if possible. The LM cannot possibly play anywhere near an Assault, but against non-mages the spell isn't really powerful enough to be an L2. Perhaps something else could happen when the D-Web is placed besides the mana drain effect.
- Modify the Assault's L3 to make it slightly more powerful against Large units/buildings by spawning 2-4 Infested Terrans before the Firebats.
- Firebat L4 nuking should be easier. It's incredibly difficult without the bomber. My thought is to lower the nuke cost to maybe 20 minerals and 50 gas, but make Nuclear Ghosts much tougher and not able to cloak.

Spec Ops
- Current Marine L1 is kind of lame. It's useful and definitely a good concept, but I feel like it's not really a spell as much as a class ability, which I don't think should be a part of TS. This just makes the Marine a counter to cloak/burrow. I think that the L1 should give the Marine the Comsat with full energy every time, and it should be taken out of his control after 10-15 seconds. This makes it more of a spell than being able to just let it recharge and using it for free during the night. You can give it to an NPC and that won't reset his hotkey, too. Also, why does he need the CC? =o
- The L2 seems reasonably balanced. It will see equal use as a dodge and as a damage spell, in my opinion, and probably more of the former. I am a fan of the spell, and giving multiple shots allows you to target someone with the last 1-2 if you're fast enough. A very skillful spell, should be fun.
- Finally, the Marine+Dropship dominates any melee hero, and with the stuns it's dominant as well. It is way too overpowered as an L3 for the Marine, I think.
- I've never particularly been a fan of the Mine Drone, I'd prefer to see the Bomber replace it as the Spec Op Marine's L4. Keep the spell the same, maybe give the bomber slightly more life, but that's about it, it's already of L4 power for the Marine.
- New Marine L3: Support Team: 2 or 3 marines spawn as companions, or maybe a mixed infantry team. Or something else, suggestions could be nice.

Otherwise:
- Assim rate seems almost perfect. I still think that they are too hard to kill, especially for some classes, so perhaps shields would be a better choice. (All damage types do full damage to shields). But the income rate seems the best of anything yet.
- Thank you for the short briefing.
- Thank you for decapitate bonus. Although, your text says +40 but an opponent in the game said that his mission objectives said +30. Take a look at that.
- Why did you write out "Experience". =( Confused me.


Here are changes that were made in 1.5. The ones in green I'd like to see incorporated, the ones in red I don't like, and the ones in Yellow I'm neutral on. Orange are things Moose already fixed, either in the same way or another.

I personally think that Moose's version is much more suited to competitive play simply because it's far more frequently updated and there are not a ton of new game-breaking bugs that need to be fixed.

As for the new heroes, the Earth Demon is honestly way too specialized to be useful. It is hard as hell to get any kills on a decent player with it no matter what you do, which means you go L3. Being stunned by someone no where near you really defeats the TS environment we're used to, and auto building kill is really dull.

The Engineer is a failure. It's buggy as hell, so no one has really playtested it much, but everyone competent that I've talked to doesn't think it has any real chance in PvP. I can't particularly see anyone wanting to play a hero that's useless except for killing computer opponents.

Likewise, I think completely inverting the Marine is foolish. What Moose has done with it I think is necessary, but it doesn't need to be hugely changed, and obviously if the Firebat stays as it is that can't be the case.

The Psion has potential, but it's in desperate need of balance. Having the entire hero based around areas is interesting but pretty confusing. I think that the current L2 should be its L3 with a suitable duration/cooldown, its L1 should stay, and we should think of new spells for the replacements. Perhaps Moose could combine those Psion ideas with his "Physicist" (Which is honestly the lamest name I've ever heard) and create a new hero with what results.

The Phantom is the closest to game-ready of the three. It plays a new role and has useful and relative spells. The L2 needs to be tweaked somehow. I can get it to fire twice frequently (I play snipers too much), but some people have trouble getting it to fire even once. The L3 I have not seen too much use out of, but from what I hear making it like the Earth Demon's L2 and teleporting rather than "moving" would be a good fix. The L4 is mana intensive but rewarding. If the Phantom is kept, I have some ideas for it, and it will probably need a new spell anyway due to the Marine's L2 using a ghost, now.

That's all from me, I definitely want to see what people have to hear because I do think that combining the work of two great mapmakers would be much better for competitive and fun Temple Siege in the long run.

Post has been edited 7 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:43 pm by Decency.

L3, Mafia: Turns off all alliances and share visions. You can't re-ally/re-share vision for 30 seconds. Also changes the time from day to night or night to day.

Good idea. I'm going to have to make you wait until the next version for this, though. It shouldn't be too long.

I changed his position on the beacon, which may have done the trick. I know that's what's wrong, too. This is one of those "I know I fixed this alerady" things that got unfixed, like the killable Probe on the south team's purchase beacon and the invincible Ghost bug. I haven't tested the random beacon enough since then to verify if it works. I'll run multiple-civilian tests for it to make sure it works when I get some time.

Indeed. What was really not fair was the combo of Bomber & Nuke... that was what I really wanted to break up.

Please try to see things from my point of view. I spend hours upon hours balancing and fixing 1.4 just to have some great games of TS. I don't have the paitence to fix a bunch of bugs that I didn't make and correct imbalances that I didn't design again. Meanwhile, they were only reintroduced into the map because you got to have fun expertimenting and implementing your ideas. (Which you took a considerable amount of time to do, at that!) It's a long and painstaking process that I'm simply not willing to go through again. What you're asking is for me to go back to square one and repeat history. I just can't.

1.4M4 involved spending more time analyzing and organizing triggers than anything else. I am aware of that inefficency and none of the spells I've added are subject to it. Eventually this will be negligble as I continue Temple Siege's rehabilitation from being made in StarForge.

Doesn't everyone think that about their own ideas? Personally, I feel that a lot of your ideas are far too impulsive regardless of whether or not they "flow". Impulsiveness with a long time between versions is definitely not a good combination.

To be honest, I'm not sure I like the Assault 1 and 2 myself. I might have to come up with something... clever. I'm open to suggestions, though.

Yes, sir!

Minecapping is too strong for an L1. It might have a place as an L2 if changed somehow. As an L2, it risks ending up being being redundant with Mine Drone and/or devaluing it.

Time Rip is negligible... it can be triggered in two minutes tops. I don't even particularily like Physicist the way I wrote it anymore. More on that later, though. ;o

The only change I can think of offhand that the "maojority" (Chairman Mao's majority?) found unpopular was the Assassin change. Over the course of more than 20 public games of 1.4M3, I have only heard three people complain about it. (You are one of them, I don't remember the names of the other two)
The other change people didn't like was Assimilators. Which I also didn't like and also addressed in 1.4M4, rendering that particular change moot.
I'll stop being subtle with you: I don't like you because you when discussing things like this you exaggerate and you are certainly less than well-mannered.

Mana spam should work fine for Marine... if you buy L2 first.

Good idea.

Indeed. I'm going to try 10 minerals / 60 gas in the next version. Going to hold off on the Ghost changes for now.

Give triggers and addons placed without their buildings don't get along.

You might be on to something here.

The string is incorrect, not the unit. I'll fix that.

I now agree with this. I was playing Archer last night. By the time I had enough mana to make a substantial camp, Marines started spawning in another minute and I lost any hope of the camps surviving for an extended period of time.

Not sure why this was in orange. I didn't do anything about it. Unless it was the less armor-piercing thing. I forget which version did that. >_<


Also, a general note for players. Due to the time I spent between versions, I need a refresher of what existing bugs are still in this version. If you guys could retest to confirm them and make me a fancy new list, I'd be very grateful.

Post has been edited 6 time(s), last time on Feb 25 2009, 3:44 am by Theodore Roosevelt.

question! does DM's Lv4 spawn a certain number of broodlings for the cast it self or does it depend on how many heroes gets affected by it?

Example:

If i cast Lv4 and 1 hero is affected, and it spawns 50 broods around that hero.
And if it was 2 heroes that were affected would it spawn 25 on each hero or 50 on both heroes?

Each hero hit with the spell will spawn the same amount of broodlings.

Actually, the triggers is set to only spawn max 8 broodlings near your heroes. If you were next to a cliff/keep moving around to escape, broodlings will continually spawn. Ironically, if you stand still, no more broodlings will spawn....

and, I've never said I'd have you balance and trigger everything. I can do the work. It's just that you seem to be more experienced in the competitive realm of TS. It doesn't mean I'd have you be my balance slave (altho that'd be really nice XD)

But w/e.. If u don't wanna do it, then I'll have to do it myself... However, I may have to implement some of your ideas as well if I feel that it truly is a good idea... You're free to implement mine of course.

Altho we may work seperately, I feel it is important to keep the ideas of the map open for all of us.

In other words, you're just stealing his balance changes.

I don't see anything wrong with each of them taking the other's better changes.

Except that Moose isn't taking Unholy's better changes because none exist.

Actually, in addition to my "to-do" section of notes I have a "to steal from 1.5" in there.

Mr. President, may I remind you that I made the map, instead of your so-called "none-exist"... and anyway, you don't even play the map.. so stop bitchin'

and yes.. we'll "share" each other's ideas O.o...

Actually, I introduced him to TS. We played a few games on Monday.
Though I would call him far from being qualified to make the statements he did.

*sigh*.. it was fun while it lasted...
Without you, Moose, TS wouldn't have been as sucessful (actually, Froggy, one of my friend, was the first guy to spread this .. by playing it @useast)
And I'm sure you've put a lot of effort onto the map..
.. Do as you wish. I left the map unprotected for a purpose.

Most people were complaining about the assimilator change because their op 'strategies' would no longer be so much of a threat. Moose actually made a version that was far superior to MT, since MT is almost guaranteed to be win or lose based entirely on the hero choices.

Also that anti-map hack DEFINITELY needs to go. I've played too many people who literally use it every game as their free "chance". I've even played a game where my allies used it just so they could kill me.

Funny, that's actually the only reason I'd like to keep it.

I really disagree with the assault and ops changes. Assault was already weak as hell, and could only win by nuking (which was OP with dropship). Now every single spell is nerfed from its previous form. L1 was only OP vs LM, and now it costs 50, so it will never be used. L2 was so hard to hit with, and now it's harder to hit with and only stuns for long enough for the bat to catch up to the stunned hero. L3 was pretty good before, but its new L3 is impossible to hit with (and can't be combo'd with stun because the fuse it too long). L4 is now weaker as well (can't use 100 gas to buy ghost before you get your L4).

Ops was already one of the most picked heroes, and was very versatile, being able to go mana/spells or hp/attack. You nerfed its L1, ok...no one will ever use it except vs assassin. Its L2 is really OP right now. It doesn't do much damage at all, but the invincibility lasts quite a while, and you can move while using it, so it's a mobile dodge (no other hero has that). L3: dropship coupled with marine is deadly as hell. He can quickly kill any assim on the map (both bases' protected ones as well) unlike firebat who did concussive with the dship. And 4 rounds of stun with marine's range and attack rate is really strong. Its L4 was always the most or second most OP spell in the game, and now it can be abused even more with the dropship. I don't think lowering its HP by a couple hundred makes the fastest shooting, 3rd fastest moving, 2nd highest ranged hero weak enough to make up for all the improvements. A mobile dodge for 50, and a permanent, mobile dodge for 80 on a fast-moving hero?

So the least picked hero was weakened, and the 2nd most picked hero was strengthened. This is actually a pretty good gage of how strong a hero is. People generally pick heroes because they are strong or easy to play. People avoid heroes that are weak or hard to play. Obviously summoner was the strongest, and will probably remain that way. DM was rarely picked only because it is hard to play...it's probably the best hero-killer in decent hands. Assault was almost never picked except as a counter to a summoner, because it really doesn't do much in games. Purchasing hydras, vultures, goons, or reavers all kill it in M3, and probably in M4 (L1 might stop that now). It can't win except by nuking or killing your heroes, and at equal experience the only heroes it can usually kill are ling in M3 (with very good dropship use - stunning, loading, unloading to dodge as needed), and really nothing in M4 unless it gets very lucky and lands a L3 on Medic (everything else is too fast, takes half/quarter damage, or has a dodge). It can't even farm vs anything but summoner and medic, and very early vs dm and assassin, so its splash damage really only makes it level almost as fast as a normal hero. So you really only win because of your allies, or by slowly nuking your way into their temple and killing it at night (which is easily stopped by them throwing down another 2 cannons every other time you nuke it).

I'll think about how to balance them, but right now M3 is much closer to balanced than M4. I agree both Ops and Assault are OP in M3, but only because of their L4s and mine-capping. Assault's L4 is not OP without dropship, so that's how you address that. Ops' L4 is very OP with invincible mines, and possibly still OP without them being invincible (I'd have to test). I'll post again with some ideas as I think of them, but bear in mind the assault only "assaults" with its L4 now, so either change the name or give it the ability to kill a pylon for less than 220 gas. As very few people like any of its spells (1-3 too weak, 4 feels cheap), a complete revamp would probably be great.

PS. Summoner also needs nerfing: either to +1 attack, a pretty low cap on lings, removal of adrenal, or a complete revamp. Other than those 3 heroes and medic's L4, I thought M3 was close to balanced.

I agree almost completely with the previous post.

My suggestion as a partial revamp, while keeping many of the similar ideas and the same (albeit improved) role for the Assault:

L1: Instant (or very short warning) 2-3 second stun with the same range as the current one. Stun the Assault for a second after those 2-3 seconds of enemy stuntime. Call it "Charge" or something. This should also "stun" buildings by giving them to a neutral player until the Assault's stun ends, in order to make it chainable against buildings.
L2: Summon/Recharge+Heal Bomber: A corsair summon. Casting D-Web somewhere (removing the d-web) stuns for 4-5 seconds and takes away 25 enemy mana. I think starting/recharging it with 90 energy and costing 100 to bomb would be fair. The Firebat should be immune to this stun and mana loss.
L3: Current L3 "Firebomb" with Infested Terran change, but the player can use a Mutalisk with a Guardian Morphing trigger to detonate the bomb, or it detonates itself after 5 seconds. The players all need to have a greater spire, or he needs to be given one near his silo, in order to Guardian Morph. I guess the scourge would be okay, but it's unwieldy to me and only very very slightly faster than a Mutalisk.
L4: Nuclear Ghost, as before. I agree with being able to pre-buy a nuke, the player choosing Assault should be given the CC/Silo right away.

Please, critique. I think these should be slightly more powerful than his M3 spells, but without the Dropship+Nuke abuse. It allows him to combo spells together and to do some serious damage to heroes and enemy buildings.