Quote from name:isolatedpurity
One of these days I'll have to play with you 
Quote from 
UnholyUrine
UnholyUrineI still have yet to play this. But from what I've heard, this is excellent 
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Norm brought to my attention that v1.09 no longer works. It's because of the latest patch 1.16.1 which messed up the two EUD triggers I put in.
Anyway I've released a v1.10 which just removes those two triggers. I suggest everyone update to the new version. Since there's no longer any EUD's this version should work for every future patch.
Anyway I've released a v1.10 which just removes those two triggers. I suggest everyone update to the new version. Since there's no longer any EUD's this version should work for every future patch.
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Great map man, nice work. Rated 5 
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I was bored so I just made a bunch of edited versions of the banner image.
http://profile.imageshack.us/user/devilesk/images
http://profile.imageshack.us/user/devilesk/images
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I might work on another version that will just add additional features and improved help messages and stuff. I haven't come across any new bugs. I want to gather a list of more things I want to add/change before I start another version though. Anyone have any suggestions for a possible new version?
Right now I'm thinking about adding a choice in the beginning to increase the chip amount based on the number of players. So in addition to the current 150, there would also be options for 450 in a 2 player game, 300 for 3 players, 225 for 4 players, and 180 for 5 players.
I'm also thinking about some more general informative messages that would display at the beginning in addition to the one that already says to hotkey your shuttle. This would help noobs figure out how to play. It would include things like directly showing the player where there hand is (which is a commonly asked question) with a ping and centerview. These kinds of things won't interfere with the start of the game and can easily be ignored by experienced players.
Also, I'm thinking about giving each player the option to play the tutorial again individually just for themselves. They'd basically be removed from the game for the duration of the tutorial. For the person watching the tutorial none of the game messages would show up, only the tutorial messages. Their auto-fold would also be on, so to other players who are still playing the game, the person watching the tutorial will just be folding their hand.
EDIT:
It's also been suggested that I make the turn time limit settable in the beginning. There will be options for 15, 30, and the current 60 seconds.
Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Feb 21 2009, 5:43 am by Barack Obama.
Right now I'm thinking about adding a choice in the beginning to increase the chip amount based on the number of players. So in addition to the current 150, there would also be options for 450 in a 2 player game, 300 for 3 players, 225 for 4 players, and 180 for 5 players.
I'm also thinking about some more general informative messages that would display at the beginning in addition to the one that already says to hotkey your shuttle. This would help noobs figure out how to play. It would include things like directly showing the player where there hand is (which is a commonly asked question) with a ping and centerview. These kinds of things won't interfere with the start of the game and can easily be ignored by experienced players.
Also, I'm thinking about giving each player the option to play the tutorial again individually just for themselves. They'd basically be removed from the game for the duration of the tutorial. For the person watching the tutorial none of the game messages would show up, only the tutorial messages. Their auto-fold would also be on, so to other players who are still playing the game, the person watching the tutorial will just be folding their hand.
EDIT:
It's also been suggested that I make the turn time limit settable in the beginning. There will be options for 15, 30, and the current 60 seconds.
Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Feb 21 2009, 5:43 am by Barack Obama.
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I finally was able to play this game with the new version .10 and i must say that it is quite a respectable piece of work; however, there are a few things that could increase the interest of this game.
1. Yes, point out your hole cards more. Also, a lot of people i played with were completely lost on how to call/bet/fold. Maybe a few additional messages regarding that would help.
2. The only negative thing i can say about this map is that at times i felt "I'm playing poker... on SC... so what?" You have a hidden obstacle here and that is that you cannot replicate real gambling over SC. We've all played poker for pennies or even no money at all before, and without money, cards are fucking lame. To take this map to the next level, i think you will need a feature to really get players interested in the game. Numbers in the corner isn't going to cut it.
I mean, when you think about it. Every good map on SC has something a little more tangible that players can obtain that keeps them playing again and again. For example: in defense maps, players build up an army to defend with, and get the pride of keeping their lives. In Arena maps, players get the satisfactions of owning other players, they can actually see their opponent die. Do you know why monopoly is the most successful board game? Because players have titles deeds and houses and hotels and paper money to hold on to. I guess what i'm trying to say is that this game would be a lot more interesting if players had some kind of tangible result for their time invested.
3. If you are feeling really ambitious, maybe you could build in a text system that displays to players possible hands they could hit with, %'s of such hands occuring. Maybe something for excitement such as if player 3 has player 1 dominated, but player 1 has a lucky hit on the river- a text could come up somethin like: HOLY SHIT! PLAYER 1 JUST WON THIS HAND ON THE RIVER!!! Maybe put in a commentary that non-participating players could see similar to what we hear when we watch Texas Hold'em on TV.
1. Yes, point out your hole cards more. Also, a lot of people i played with were completely lost on how to call/bet/fold. Maybe a few additional messages regarding that would help.
2. The only negative thing i can say about this map is that at times i felt "I'm playing poker... on SC... so what?" You have a hidden obstacle here and that is that you cannot replicate real gambling over SC. We've all played poker for pennies or even no money at all before, and without money, cards are fucking lame. To take this map to the next level, i think you will need a feature to really get players interested in the game. Numbers in the corner isn't going to cut it.
I mean, when you think about it. Every good map on SC has something a little more tangible that players can obtain that keeps them playing again and again. For example: in defense maps, players build up an army to defend with, and get the pride of keeping their lives. In Arena maps, players get the satisfactions of owning other players, they can actually see their opponent die. Do you know why monopoly is the most successful board game? Because players have titles deeds and houses and hotels and paper money to hold on to. I guess what i'm trying to say is that this game would be a lot more interesting if players had some kind of tangible result for their time invested.
3. If you are feeling really ambitious, maybe you could build in a text system that displays to players possible hands they could hit with, %'s of such hands occuring. Maybe something for excitement such as if player 3 has player 1 dominated, but player 1 has a lucky hit on the river- a text could come up somethin like: HOLY SHIT! PLAYER 1 JUST WON THIS HAND ON THE RIVER!!! Maybe put in a commentary that non-participating players could see similar to what we hear when we watch Texas Hold'em on TV.
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Quote from Norm
Norm2. The only negative thing i can say about this map is that at times i felt "I'm playing poker... on SC... so what?" You have a hidden obstacle here and that is that you cannot replicate real gambling over SC. We've all played poker for pennies or even no money at all before, and without money, cards are fucking lame. To take this map to the next level, i think you will need a feature to really get players interested in the game. Numbers in the corner isn't going to cut it.
I mean, when you think about it. Every good map on SC has something a little more tangible that players can obtain that keeps them playing again and again. For example: in defense maps, players build up an army to defend with, and get the pride of keeping their lives. In Arena maps, players get the satisfactions of owning other players, they can actually see their opponent die. Do you know why monopoly is the most successful board game? Because players have titles deeds and houses and hotels and paper money to hold on to. I guess what i'm trying to say is that this game would be a lot more interesting if players had some kind of tangible result for their time invested.
I mean, when you think about it. Every good map on SC has something a little more tangible that players can obtain that keeps them playing again and again. For example: in defense maps, players build up an army to defend with, and get the pride of keeping their lives. In Arena maps, players get the satisfactions of owning other players, they can actually see their opponent die. Do you know why monopoly is the most successful board game? Because players have titles deeds and houses and hotels and paper money to hold on to. I guess what i'm trying to say is that this game would be a lot more interesting if players had some kind of tangible result for their time invested.
I see your point though, and the question of whether to "starcraftize" the game was something I thought about from the beginning. However, I wanted to remain true to the game. If I wanted to do something gimmicky or introduce some other aspect to the game I might as well just make poker D. I think the inherent fun in playing the game of texas hold'em itself should be enough, and if not then it's just a matter of taste.
Trying to introduce another aspect to the game would also take away from the original game of poker itself. Players would focus less on the original act of player poker, and shift their attention to doing something else more starcraft related. That wasn't what I wanted to go for.
I don't feel like your monopoly example really applies, because if I were making a monopoly map on SC I would just seek to replicate the game as exactly as possible. What you said about it being popular would still apply, because those aspects of the game would still be there. However, nothing more would be introduced. What made it fun in real life is what would make it fun in SC. It's the same way with replicating poker in a map. In doing so I'm just playing off the original game's inherent qualities that make it fun. The issue is whether online poker is as much fun as real poker, but in that case I still go back to the examples of real online poker sites that really do nothing but replicate the game.
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Yes, your map is fine how it is. I was merely trying to brainstorm things that in my personal opinion would make it better. Also, online poker still retains the gambling aspect of it, and that is the defining factor that makes online poker worth playing. I'm sure there are ways to implement something more tangible for players without sacrificing the integrity of the original game, but that would be up to you to decide, if you ever decide to do that. Like I said, the map is good how it is- and yes, a lot of my previous post is my perspective and might not be commonly shared with all Texas hold 'em fanatics =)
Anyway, good luck on any updates you plan on implementing.
Anyway, good luck on any updates you plan on implementing.
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Nobody else has any comments, bugs, suggestions, or something they'd like to see in a new version?
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I've heard reports of a glitch that occurs when someone leaves, although I wasn't able to get a replay.
However, I've reenabled my debug triggers in my test map so I can play by myself with 5 comps and control their actions. I also modified the voteban so i can "ban" defeat a comp at anytime simulating a player leaving. In doing so I've been able to test different scenarios and I've pinpointed the problem.
The error was a really subtle one. In one particular trigger that's supposed to set deaths for players 2 to 7 to 0 for a certain unit, I overlooked the fact that if a player who is part of force 1 leaves the game then they're not part of the force anymore. So doing "set deaths to 0 for x unit for force 1" will not set a deaths to 0 for that player anymore.
The conditions in the hand for the error to be noticeable are also pretty specific. I have never actually encountered in a public game, even though someone told me about it, and most won't encounter it in a game. I had to specifically look for it using my test map. The effects can only be seen when the player that leaves is the last remaining player that is left to act, and all other players before can no longer act because they have either folded or gone all-in. If any other player still had a turn after the player who left, then the glitch wouldn't occur.
Also, even when the glitch occurred it wasn't exactly game ending, although it appeared to be. What would happen is that the turn would be advanced to the next player, even though the hand should have gone to the showdown because no player can act. Now a player that isn't supposed to be able to act anymore is stuck on his turn that he shouldn't have. If the timer is left to go down to 0 the problem resolves itself, but if the player keeps trying to commit any type of action it will just keep resetting the timer back to a minute and not advance the turn, giving the appearance that it had "stalled" or is "stuck".
Anyway, it's fixed. If anyone really wants to know I can go more in-depth about what exactly the problem was but I'd have to explain how certain parts of the map work.
What's really nice about the debug map is I can do solo tests and have complete control over all the players and test all kinds of different scenarios with people leaving.
I could release 1.11 now, but I'm going to implement the changes I talked about before as well as continue to try to find any glitches before I put out a new version, although I think the player leaving is really solid now. If any glitches exist they're really obscure ones. I might release the debug map to let people see if they can try to screw up the game and cause a glitch.
However, I've reenabled my debug triggers in my test map so I can play by myself with 5 comps and control their actions. I also modified the voteban so i can "ban" defeat a comp at anytime simulating a player leaving. In doing so I've been able to test different scenarios and I've pinpointed the problem.
The error was a really subtle one. In one particular trigger that's supposed to set deaths for players 2 to 7 to 0 for a certain unit, I overlooked the fact that if a player who is part of force 1 leaves the game then they're not part of the force anymore. So doing "set deaths to 0 for x unit for force 1" will not set a deaths to 0 for that player anymore.
The conditions in the hand for the error to be noticeable are also pretty specific. I have never actually encountered in a public game, even though someone told me about it, and most won't encounter it in a game. I had to specifically look for it using my test map. The effects can only be seen when the player that leaves is the last remaining player that is left to act, and all other players before can no longer act because they have either folded or gone all-in. If any other player still had a turn after the player who left, then the glitch wouldn't occur.
Also, even when the glitch occurred it wasn't exactly game ending, although it appeared to be. What would happen is that the turn would be advanced to the next player, even though the hand should have gone to the showdown because no player can act. Now a player that isn't supposed to be able to act anymore is stuck on his turn that he shouldn't have. If the timer is left to go down to 0 the problem resolves itself, but if the player keeps trying to commit any type of action it will just keep resetting the timer back to a minute and not advance the turn, giving the appearance that it had "stalled" or is "stuck".
Anyway, it's fixed. If anyone really wants to know I can go more in-depth about what exactly the problem was but I'd have to explain how certain parts of the map work.
What's really nice about the debug map is I can do solo tests and have complete control over all the players and test all kinds of different scenarios with people leaving.
I could release 1.11 now, but I'm going to implement the changes I talked about before as well as continue to try to find any glitches before I put out a new version, although I think the player leaving is really solid now. If any glitches exist they're really obscure ones. I might release the debug map to let people see if they can try to screw up the game and cause a glitch.
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I've been working on making the changes I talked about before.
Here's how the redone pregame selection looks. As you can see there's new options.
Also, disregard the odd exposed part of the minimap in the top mid. I added map revealers for testing purposes.
There's room for more interval lengths, but I don't think there's a need because I haven't had any complaints or requests about it.
The amount on the right varies depending on the amount of players in the game. Since in the picture there's 5 players, the alternative starting chip amount is 180. That number will increase with less players. If there it's a full house, 6 players, then this selection is skipped.
Now you can force faster play with the lower countdown timer options.
I've also made the bet error messages more detailed providing more helpful information. I think now a person can figure out how to use their bet/raise and check/call actions even if its their first time just by reading the messages. Most people will often just try to unload the bet/raise action when they first place, so these messages should help guide them.
Displayed after trying to unload Bet/Raise with zero gas.
Displayed after trying to unload Bet/Raise without enough gas to make a legal bet.
Displayed if a person tries to unload check/call without enough minerals.
Displayed if a person tries to use bet/raise to go all-in
Some of the tutorial messages have been revised, but the information is essentially the same.
I've also added pings at various intervals during a player's turn countdown timer to serve as alerts/warnings.
EDIT: FIRST POST UPDATED
I noticed that many times stupid people will unintentionally turn their auto-fold on and not notice it. Then when it's their turn they're wondering why they folded, so I added a message for the player whenever he folds due to auto-fold to let him know that auto-fold is on and also telling him to unload the auto-fold action to turn it off.
Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Feb 27 2009, 7:09 am by Barack Obama.
Here's how the redone pregame selection looks. As you can see there's new options.
Also, disregard the odd exposed part of the minimap in the top mid. I added map revealers for testing purposes.
There's room for more interval lengths, but I don't think there's a need because I haven't had any complaints or requests about it.
The amount on the right varies depending on the amount of players in the game. Since in the picture there's 5 players, the alternative starting chip amount is 180. That number will increase with less players. If there it's a full house, 6 players, then this selection is skipped.
Now you can force faster play with the lower countdown timer options.
I've also made the bet error messages more detailed providing more helpful information. I think now a person can figure out how to use their bet/raise and check/call actions even if its their first time just by reading the messages. Most people will often just try to unload the bet/raise action when they first place, so these messages should help guide them.
Displayed after trying to unload Bet/Raise with zero gas.
Displayed after trying to unload Bet/Raise without enough gas to make a legal bet.
Displayed if a person tries to unload check/call without enough minerals.
Displayed if a person tries to use bet/raise to go all-in
Some of the tutorial messages have been revised, but the information is essentially the same.
I've also added pings at various intervals during a player's turn countdown timer to serve as alerts/warnings.
EDIT: FIRST POST UPDATED
I noticed that many times stupid people will unintentionally turn their auto-fold on and not notice it. Then when it's their turn they're wondering why they folded, so I added a message for the player whenever he folds due to auto-fold to let him know that auto-fold is on and also telling him to unload the auto-fold action to turn it off.
Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Feb 27 2009, 7:09 am by Barack Obama.
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These are great edits, i can't count the number of times noobs are completely clueless in any semi-complicated game. Are you doing anything to make it more exciting as well? Maybe some explosions.
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Quote from Norm
NormThese are great edits, i can't count the number of times noobs are completely clueless in any semi-complicated game. Are you doing anything to make it more exciting as well? Maybe some explosions.
I added CC's that you can move over your hole cards to cover them. You can cover and uncover them by moving your shuttle.
Fully covered.
Fully uncovered.
I also edited the display action so it also shows the unit name next to the card number.
There's a dash missing for one of the cards, but it's fixed now. It should say "Zergling - 8".
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I'm trying to look for any bugs or possible bugs now.
I just fixed a fatal error that would occur if a person leaves when they are the big or small blind before they had the chance to post it. The chances of this occurring are extremely small, because it would have to be timed just right. If the person is the big blind, he'd have to leave the trigger cycle right after he's been set to be the big blind to glitch the automatic blind posting. I don't even think it's possible to leave and glitch the small blind since it's in the same trigger cycle.
Anyway, I anticipated the glitch and I was only able to produce it manually once out of many tests. I had to introduce a defeat trigger that would run at just the right time in order to consistently glitch it. After I did that I was able to correct the glitch.
Basically, I'm trying to anticipate and look for glitches resulting from rare cases. If anyone can think of other scenarios that could possibly glitch the map I'd like to hear your ideas.
I just fixed a fatal error that would occur if a person leaves when they are the big or small blind before they had the chance to post it. The chances of this occurring are extremely small, because it would have to be timed just right. If the person is the big blind, he'd have to leave the trigger cycle right after he's been set to be the big blind to glitch the automatic blind posting. I don't even think it's possible to leave and glitch the small blind since it's in the same trigger cycle.
Anyway, I anticipated the glitch and I was only able to produce it manually once out of many tests. I had to introduce a defeat trigger that would run at just the right time in order to consistently glitch it. After I did that I was able to correct the glitch.
Basically, I'm trying to anticipate and look for glitches resulting from rare cases. If anyone can think of other scenarios that could possibly glitch the map I'd like to hear your ideas.
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What about changing the tile set of the terrain, not that it needs to be changed, it would just be a change of scenery for the die-hard fans.
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Anyone know any sprites that crash the current maphacks, or anything except for EUDs that will work? I want a method that won't break after every SC patch.
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Quote from name:Barack Obama
Anyone know any sprites that crash the current maphacks, or anything except for EUDs that will work? I want a method that won't break after every SC patch.
I'm just taking a wild guess that you didn't already A)Think of this, and/or B)Already have this. Instead of sprites why not just use a Protoss Abritar to hide the cards one has? Make it constantly move to the same position so the user can't move it. I'm sure everything around it would be invincible so there's no need to worry about the user attacking shit.
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Quote from Brontobyte
BrontobyteQuote from name:Barack Obama
Anyone know any sprites that crash the current maphacks, or anything except for EUDs that will work? I want a method that won't break after every SC patch.
I'm just taking a wild guess that you didn't already A)Think of this, and/or B)Already have this. Instead of sprites why not just use a Protoss Abritar to hide the cards one has? Make it constantly move to the same position so the user can't move it. I'm sure everything around it would be invincible so there's no need to worry about the user attacking shit.
Also, it's clear you're unfamiliar with the map. It would be possible to cloak the card units, but there would be no reason to move the arbiters to prevent the users from moving them, because the cards aren't owned by the players and therefore the arbiters used to cloak them wouldn't be owned by the players either. If I were to use arbiters to cloak units they would be arbiters owned by players 8-11. Someone who has actually played the map would know that.
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Quote from name:Barack Obama
Quote from Brontobyte
BrontobyteQuote from name:Barack Obama
Anyone know any sprites that crash the current maphacks, or anything except for EUDs that will work? I want a method that won't break after every SC patch.
I'm just taking a wild guess that you didn't already A)Think of this, and/or B)Already have this. Instead of sprites why not just use a Protoss Arbiter to hide the cards one has? Make it constantly move to the same position so the user can't move it. I'm sure everything around it would be invincible so there's no need to worry about the user attacking shit.
Also, it's clear you're unfamiliar with the map. It would be possible to cloak the card units, but there would be no reason to move the arbiters to prevent the users from moving them, because the cards aren't owned by the players and therefore the arbiters used to cloak them wouldn't be owned by the players either. If I were to use arbiters to cloak units they would be arbiters owned by players 8-11. Someone who has actually played the map would know that.
Wow, they have everything these days.
I never said I played the game. I have never played it nor do I plan on it. I was just throwing some ideas across. It appears that I'm not as up-to-date as you are on all the various types of hacks there are for StarCraft.
Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 28 2009, 6:54 pm by Brontobyte.
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[02:27 am]
Symmetry -- https://staredit.net/topic/18903/ THE REVIEWS ARE HERE! "ok these are pretty good memes" - ssj9Kevin[2026-7-17. : 2:58 pm]
Ultraviolet -- SymmetrySymmetry shouted: Man I wish we had this tech back in the day when people played ums lmao
fr fr[2026-7-17. : 2:39 am]
Symmetry -- Man I wish we had this tech back in the day when people played ums lmao[2026-7-16. : 6:28 am]
NudeRaider -- EUD actions, specifically. The conditions remained. Today we can even have actions again, but they're all virtualized/whitelisted (not sure on the actual technical implementation) so you can only use them for specific intended purposed, not arbitrary code injections.[2026-7-16. : 6:26 am]
NudeRaider -- I mean yes, maps - through EUDs - were theoretically able to do that as well, but that was patched quickly.[2026-7-16. : 6:25 am]
NudeRaider -- SymmetrySymmetry shouted: Ohhh imagine a SC map that could delete itself
not the map, the editor[2026-7-16. : 2:28 am]
Symmetry -- I vaguely remember Voy doing some ACE back in the day, but I had no idea EUDs could do that kind of shit. I am very much catching up on the technology[2026-7-15. : 8:51 pm]
NudeRaider -- SymmetrySymmetry shouted: NudeRaider Is EUD editor capable of writing shit onto the player's harddrive? That seems like it would be dangerous
yeah an editor that isn't allowed to write files sounds rather pointless, so I'd assume it can. Like most other programs too btw. and yes, obviously that's dangerous, but also kinda necessary. MS introduced that virtualization for exactly that reason.[2026-7-15. : 4:10 am]
Ultraviolet -- I don't think so. I think they shut that shit down after 1.16, maybe even earlier