Because I can go out right now and forsake God, but I choose not to. Good question though. Just because you know what your opponent is going to do next in a game of chess, lets say. Does that mean that the move is not of his own free will?

Cudos, thought provoking.

But when you're all knowing, wouldn't that also mean that there is no free will?

I just want to say thank you encore for entertaining our questions. Also Fierce, let us for the sake of argument assume that free will does exist, and try and try and argue it from there(we I believe we can still do). We've already demonstrated that if we don't have free will, then it is ultimately god fault that we sin and not our own.

Forced love is still love, it just isn't free love which we consider to be a relatively better love. So really what god wants is to accept his love, and love him back, as opposed to just raping us. Are we ok so far?

Just because you know something doesn't mean you control it. God surely didn't want Adam to eat of the fruit, but he knew Adam would. I can see where you're coming from, and this is the best counter I can think of. Sorry if it isn't very fulfilling.

Edit: @Clans In a blunt way. I entertain questions as far as I can. Though I really don't believe there is a way to force someone to love you. There is a way to force someone to do something, but they only feel an emotion of their own will.

So then it is in the emotions that love and free will are. What if I told you that emotions are related to something as simple and cold as polypeptides? http://www.healthstresswellness.com/index.asp?pgid=72

Well God did make us, and so I figure that he would make a biological reason for our emotions. From the way that was phrased (I didn't read all of it mind you) it sounded like they thought emotions were not controlled by you. haha I may be out there on that.

Concerning Free will, here are some interesting reads:

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/free_will.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm#chr
http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/predest.html

(actually, the first link covers a lot of other more interesting topics. Check them out if you want)

I might read a couple of those before bed. Thanks Mellinium

Yeah is is a rather dry read.... and they say they really don't know for certain, but I thought it might be a little stimulating.

Alright, let's also say that your free will not only exists, but it is entirely controlled by you and you are ultimately responsible for your mistakes and not god.

If god wants a relationship with me, and I want a relationship with god, why can't I have it? What I mean is why can't I love god with my free will, and he love me back with no strings attached? And by strings I mean the rituals of repentance, prayer, turning from sin, etc.

The most popular reaction to this is that we don't deserve his love(as we are imperfect and he is perfectly holy). Do you believe this, and if so can you explain it a little better?

If God knew Adam would eat the fruit, then it is not free will. Free will is not free if it can be entirely foreseen.

1. It is our fault and not God's. Romans 5:12

2. Because if you really want it you will turn from your sins. In fact what I gather from the Bible is that in order to be saved (know you're going to Heaven, and be able to have that fellowship with God) all you have to do is realize A. You're a sinner. B. There is a penalty for your sin C. Jesus paid for your sin, and D. Romans 10:9, and 13 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved | For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

The Bible doesn't really say, just so you know, that you must be perfect in order to go to Heaven. If you really believe the Gospel, however, you will want to strive for perfection. Which is what Paul mentions as the prize that is set before us.

EDIT: This is the last time I'm saying something about free will. Free will can be described as - Independent power to choose (dictionary definition). This does not say "Independent power to choose that is not known." God knew Adam would take of the fruit of the tree. He didn't CREATE Adam to take of the fruit of the tree. Bible says that God creates things to please him. Therefore Adam had free choice to eat of the fruit. It would not have been free will if God would have known, and when Adam was about to take a bite showed up and stopped him.

Just in case that doesn't solve it. I know that Clan is going to post again. Does that mean that he isn't exercising free will to do so? Again, God just knew it was going to happen, and let Adam make his own choice. Therefore, free will.

I stopped arguing about whether or not we have free will at the top of the page and just gave it to you for the sake of argument. And then in my last post I even forsake the ground of the nature of our free will, and assumed it to be the way you say it is, all for the sake of progress and getting away from the discussions of the past, so please please please stay with me here. I'm saying "Alright you won(or let's just say you won), but now let us look at the next step, the implications of your winning(or if what you said is right, where does that take us now)." (and if you really want to stay on the topic of determinism, may I suggest we take it up here on my post with obama's picture because that is where that conversation is already at.)

I do not object to your posting of scripture to back up your point, but I ask that you include the text just so I don't have to manually look it up, and I will do the same for you if there comes a time that I quote it.

Unfortunately I mostly already know what the bible says, and I don't dispute that is says that. I am arguing (as well as any other non-believer that you might converse with) that if picked up it 1) contradicts itself 2) contradicts logic. Most of the time it's either or, but it can even be both.

But that is besides the point we are on and we haven't even made it that far in our current discussion yet. So I'll continue with the Socratic questioning.

What exactly is is about sin, that keeps us from heaven?

I find that a God that would damn anyone to eternal pain is a God not worth worshiping.
Even Hitler cannot be justly punished forever.

Eternal punishment refers to the kind of punishment, not the duration.

Uh.
Eternal = Indefinite, correct? Indefinite is definitely a duration.

Eternal is one of God's name. Eternal punishment is God's punishment.

Oh I know it was over, and I didn't care about winning or losing there. I was responding to the person who brung it up again, because obviously they can only see one page of the topic. I apologize for bringing it up again. I wasn't directing it at you.

Anyway, "What is it about sin that keeps us from heaven?" I enjoy discussing this with you guys. You bring up many questions I've never heard. I enjoy the challenge I hope I put forth at least an entertainment for you. Well first thing that comes to mind is the scripture I believe I've already quoted: "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee." Psalms 5:4 My first point would be that sin is wickedness in the eyes of God. If you want some scripture for that I can look it up at your request, but I figure you understand that. God does not have pleasure in wickedness, and he will not let evil (sin being evil) dwell with him. If he won't let evil dwell with him, then how can we go to Heaven to live with God? The second point would be that in sin, going against the commands of God, we are not pleasing God. Revelations 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." God created all things to please him. If we do not please him, as he created us to do so, why would he allow us in our sin to enter into a holy Heaven? My third point, I hope this makes sense as I'm working as I go, is that sin creates death. Physical, Romans 5:12 "Wherefore as by one man {Adam} sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned." Also, Romans 6:23a "For the wages of sin is death;" This also means a second spiritual death, the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Because we choose to sin, sin gives us the wages of death. So really, it isn't that God won't allow us into Heaven. It's that our choice of sin is a choice of Hell. I have a feeling that my points are pretty weak, but fire away : ).

Just so you know Clan the fact that the Bible defies logic (as in what we believe can happen) won't be the stand to take with me. I believe the Bible literally, and so I believe God could part the Red Sea, and many other logic defying miracles. I can see you are good, intelligent person. I want you to know that all conversation will be in good sport, and good thinking on my half.
@Fwop & Anonymous - I believe it refers to the duration. As in all eternity. Then again it is also the punishment that God made so "God's punishment" would work too.

I'm pretty sure "eternal" is a duration, too.

No one has still answered my question: Why should we worship a God that would punish someone eternally? It's unjust.

God has eternal laws that he lives by and expects us to live by them as well. When we break these laws (by sinning), there is a punishment affixed (just as there is a punishment in committing a crime). God, living and keeping the law perfectly, must justly punish a sinner for breaking the law, else he would cease to be God since he would have broken the very laws he must follow. If we refuse to repent and take part in the atonement of Jesus Christ, we are at fault and must take the punishment that is affixed to the sin we have committed. So, in other words, it is justice in God to punish someone "eternally." We may not think this just, but God cannot go back on his word, and all he asks us to do is repent.


I can't really agree with "eternal" referring specifically to the duration. I won't keep arguing this since I doubt you will things my sources are credible, but I believe them:

"Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory. ... For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore-- Eternal punishment is God's punishment. Endless punishment is God's punishment." (D&C 19 6-7, 10-12)

"These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;" (D&C 76:106)

"And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs to salvation." (D&C 138:59)

Is it unjust when he created the universe? Then made us, and gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life?

@Fwop: Cite your sources please. I'm curious. As to the first part of your post....I must say the way you word it seems very confusing.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 14 2009, 4:24 am by Encore.