That was my first thought, and I was ready to just call it emergent gameplay and not say anything, but medic's L4 is way too powerful -without- it turning DM and Medic into assassins. The only reason we won that game was because we had twice the XP (1200 to 600), otherwise we really had no answer to 5000 HP heroes that are invulnerable for half of the game. >_<

Post 1501,

In M3, Skewer is pulled by allied volt L2, This is kinda annoying.

Also, Right after that happened, I casted L1, and managed to get 2 hallued obs. Maybe its cuzz I skewered and L1ed near same time and it only killed 1 of the obs, leaving 1 behind from the skewer or something.

Since when and why did we start calling decap 'skewer'?

The Dark Templar is named Skewer.

So, anyway, I'm typing up my proposals for TS changes. People who playing broken classes and disagree with any major forms of change in general should prepare themselves for complaining.

Lest we forget.

EDIT: And I'm done:

Proposals for class revamps:

Mech
1. Switch Tank and Vulture. Let's face it, Vulture's speed and micro potential is kind of imba. It's worth an L3. The Tank is severly underused and probably not underrated. Rail Gun is the perfect compliment to the Tank Form. It would be useful not only as an attack against melee while seiged, but covers for the Tank's explosive damage and slow rate of fire. The 8-Tank special will be good for the Vulture because it will make it more effective against heavy armor targets. (buildings)

Special Ops
1. Rip out the current L1. Give Special Ops a Comsat which will be instantly recharged by the L1. Scan will cost either 40 or 50 energy. It'll be a nice equivalent of night vision. While it isn't the entire map, your allies will be able to see your scans as well.
2. Rip out the current L2. It will transform the Special Ops into a sniper rifle attack spell. This gives Special Ops the damage spell he kinda needs. You'll be a Ghost that attacks 3 or 4 times for 75 + 8 damage. It can be used as a dodge move, too, because you'll be invincible and immune to other spell effects such as paralysis or curses.
3. Rip out the current L3. Give Special Ops the Bomber from Assault.
4. L4 remains the same, Mine Drone.
Comments: I had a lot of arrangements on spells for this guy. This is the one I decided on. I really didn't want to get rid of Vessel. This arragement seems quite special operations-ish to me. (though so is the vessel)

Assault
1. Move Tear Gas (Disruption Web) to L2. It's powerful enough. To compensate Assault slightly, the Corsair will be made invincible.
2. Move Grenade to L1. It's shitty enough. Give it a shorter fuse and longer paralyze duration.
3. Rip out the current L3. (Bomber/Transport) It becomes a firebomb spell. You spawn a Scourge like a Grenade. Where it explodes, it throws down 30 or so Firebats that deal damage for a short period. (and will likely trap) Setting damage on that will be tricky and probably need to be experimented with.
4. L4 Nuclear Ghost does not change. It is less ridiculous because it does not have the transport EZ-temple-nuke combo.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Feb 1 2009, 7:32 am by Mini Moose 2707.

I also have an idea for the summoner so the zergling spell is 'nerfed' and the other spells are increased.

Spell 1: Broodling/Drone Spawn, Spawns one (maybe two) of broodlings. Or can be like the Archer's L2 and spawns drones to create relatively weak sunkens. I like the drone idea more.

Spell 2: Same as the Summoner's current spell one, I'm thinking of a 6 zergling unit cap.

Spell 3: Hydralisks (aka 'Archer's Companion') Can spawn up to four hydralisks.

Spell 4: Ultralisk, max two (same as before)

I hope this helps the summoner to be more versatile, while the 50 gas zergling will keep from spamming zerglings as much and mixing in other units (thus creating a real 'summoner'). And if you think the L3 spell wouldn't be used because of split upgrades, it is the summoner's only ranged attack which helps it's versatility and allows it to hit air.

And to compensate for taking out the almost useless Archer spells, I think the archer should be involved at using ranged attacks (I don't care about the name 'Archer', that has nothing to do with my judgement). For example, keep it's L1 and (maybe) L4, while throwing in a good Guardian spell since the archer is using Zerg air upgrades anyway.

I like iceman's idea for summoner, but I don't want summoner t have every spell just be a stronger summon. Very bland and like every other summoner in other games then. I also think archer is due for a guardian based spell in some form, but I'm having a hard time not seeing him OP afterwards. He already rapes with mutas and their tiny range.

I agree with you, I find that giving the summoner drones and hydras that his spells aren't necessarily 'stronger' but each have more specific roles. Also giving the Ling spell to L2 and a max of 6 lings, it helps to keep the lings less of an overkill over certain other heroes. It's L3 will also help to give the summoner an edge over some 'unbeatable' foes (e.g They take less damage from the assault as well as being a counter to the dropship).

I usually find that mutas don't do enough damage late game (exactly why they are a L1 spell) and could use a more powerful spell. Usually people don't bother to go L4 til they max mana since they have to use 9 civs so they can obtain it's next useful spell. Although this doesn't make it a 'bad' hero, just seems like a waste of two spell slots similar to summoners L2 and L3.

I wasn't aware that mech's L2 was overpowered. The reason you don't see people going up to tank is because tank is utterly worthless at grinding, and its building killing potential is fulfilled marginally by L1. The vulture has a ridiculously low amount of hitpoints, so much so that if it doesn't micro, its boned. Getting stunned by an assassin is no fun. I don't really care what happens with the l2 and l3 though, its peanuts compared to l4.

Assault sounds pretty cool. I wonder though what the implications this will have on assault now that he doesn't have an early game snare/mana drain. Suddenly, LM and assassin can breathe easier. I also dun want to see assault keeping his stunlock potential, by dropping grenade after grenade after grenade on someone until they die. Don't give it a longer paralyze duration -_-

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, assault should definitely lose the dropship, and I can see spec ops picking it up nicely. (Would it have the stuns, or something else like mines or towers which it could deploy?) Your spec ops looks pretty good, although I would advise having comsat energy mirror the dark archon's setup, where L1 brings it up to 65 or something mana, and mael costs 70, or 75, or I don't really remember anymore. I would even go so far as to say make comsat cost 100 mana, and L1 charges it to 89 mana.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 1 2009, 10:56 am by DumbMarine.

Vulture could be an L3, but giving the vulture 8 tanks will make it powerful as hell. A tank can't really catch people, but a Vulture sure can. I'm still partial to my idea of giving players a machine shop for upgrades, with Vulture speed 75 or so. It's good for an L2, but it's not hugely imbalanced unless a team is dumb enough to pick 3 melee classes and then lose warp gates. A vulture locks enemies in base if that's the case, and the game's pretty much over. Without speed, it's less dominant against most classes; they can escape without taking hits.

Spec Ops: I like the L1, the other spells will OWN. 75+8 for 3 hits? That's 300 damage automatically against a melee opponent, ghosts don't miss like a melee class would. During that time, the enemy also can't get any hits in and only a couple of classes have a counter. A bomber+ranged attack will make the Spec Ops dominate, and its L4 is already great, it's just underused because L2/L3 suck. Marine is still very very viable as HP+Damage spam class, giving it an L2 like that will be powerful as hell. If you really nerf the HP (3200 or so) those spells might be fair, but as it is now that unit would completely dominate.

Assault needs a spell that helps him ASSAULT. More concussive damage Firebats won't help, that's a purely PvP spell. Chaining an L1 with a long stun duration like scourge will be incredibly powerful. I'd rather keep the Assault as is, and if the L3 gets removed give it something that lets it hit buildings efficiently. Infested Terrans don't seem like such a bad idea if they are not in use, their explosive damage would also combo nicely with his L2 stun. The L1 is versatile, I'd much prefer it remain as an L1.

Giving Archer a Guardian L3 and dropping the damage (not bonus) on Mutalisks a lot would make it a much more interesting class, rather than just having L1 spam. If you think about it, Archer does 216+24 (normal) damage with his L1 spell. That's pretty damned powerful, and doesn't even account for the second and third hit of Mutalisk attacks. Dropping (slightly nerfed) Companions to L2 also makes them more viable, and you'd likely see both upgrades being utilized, meaning the class would be more versatile and fun. L4 would remain as a building/stun killer.

Giving the summoner a Broodling spawn as an L1 would make it pretty awful initially, though. That's my only complaint; it's hard enough getting the upgrades for a Zergling to be able to maintain spawns if you try to stall a warp gate too. Building static defense as a L1 is even worse, summoner already sits in base and is boring. My suggestion is to keep the Summoner's L1 as is, give broodlings a major damage bonus (+10 per attack, or so) and make them the L2. You'd obviously have to shorten the length of DM's L4. A hydralisk summon would be next to worthless. Anti-air is really not needed. The current L3 is not bad, it's just difficult to use well. I think eliminating the mana cost on consume would give more impetus to NOT sit in base.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Feb 24 2023, 12:46 pm by Decency.

Me neither. If you think I said make the paralyze duration longer than the fuse, you're putting words in my mouth.

Keep in mind the Mech can't move after throwing down the 8 tanks until the spell is over.

Right. HP would be decreased. I forgot to mention that.

How does that not account for the second attack? 4 * (27 + 3) = 108 + 12.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 1 2009, 3:47 pm by Mini Moose 2707.

[quote FaZ-]Marine is still very very viable as HP+Damage spam class, giving it an L2 like that will be powerful as hell.[/quote]

If rine goes that path, he won't have any mana to spam the L2. As long as its duration is short enough to merit spamming, it shouldn't be a problem.


Both d-web and the nuke are excellent for base assaults. >.> I like the concept of a firebat grenade, it makes it deadly to stand still when fighting the assault. Kinda like how it's deadly to stand next to a dark mage.


Over a 2.75 second period. You have to invest some serious upgrades into both mana and upgrades to get some real performance/spamming out of it. And it's one of those things that gets drastically weaker when you transition from midgame to lategame where everyone's hp is rising and l4s are getting thrown about. As it is, I wasn't really aware that archer was overpowered to begin with, so meh.

[quote Mini Moose 2707]Me neither. If you think I said make the paralyze duration longer than the fuse, you're putting words in my mouth.[/quote]

Sorry, I had the wrong numbers, I thought the fuse was 65 counts and the stun was 60 counts atm.

Me thinks we need another temple siege tournament soon.

As soon as one of their versions is done, probably urine's v1.5

No I mean BEFORE they are done, one last kick before new heroes.

Actually, a good Assault will never be killed by Assassin.

About minimap and looking at your hero, I agree with the above, I actually hardly ever look at my hero while I'm grinding, I I look more at the mini map and my team mates than myself.

Oh, and the rep attachment, is a solid arguement against two things I seen pop up lately.

a) A lot of people leave after they die twice early game, even some of the better players.

b) People say Manarine sucks.

Oh Urine, about 1.5 - there's a small area below the Temple of North's natural assim which is droppable, and a certain char will be able to use a dropship, land there and freely kill that assimilator. It wasn't a problem before because the earlier dropship user wasn't ranged, and a ghost did pitiful damage against the assim.

Attachments:

Don't really see a point to posting that replay, it was both red and teal's first time for using their characters, while purple didn't really know what to do. Orange had an early death while green confined me to the temple by using a manarine, then I stupidly die twice and lose two lives. Actually if anything the building spawners meant we were sure to win, if i hadn't stupidly ran out. Never seen anyone complain about a manarine since MT, all the complaints are going to the HP rine because the ups are lower. Not trying to say you didn't deserve the win, since you played well. Just trying to point out the facts, gg nonetheless.

I need some help.. I've ran outta good units to use..

What would ppl say about changing Light Mage from tassadar to High Templar... ??
Maybe give it a scout to shoot things with (not as a spell 1.. but has it intrinsically)... i'm shit outta luck for the 4th/5th new hero :C.. no more units ><"...

The next option is to have the new hero be aldaris... and have it's spell 1 replenish its shields... (and other stuffs) OR have that as a spell 2, and have a really good attacking spell 1

Quoting myself from earlier in this thread:
That should free up some units.

Don't add a new class if it ruins another class.

The AI cannot upgrade beyond three ups.