Yes, I had previously supported nerfing the volt but I also complain about others just as much. And the fact that volt's l1 counters 2 of assaults spells is kinda op.... Kinda...

I also agree with nerfing pigy I have played with him before on this map and he's all talk. So killer, you have nothing to worry about.

Solution: Make the assault firebat again, it was awesome when he was a firebat and it wasnt OP at all. Though a level 1 stun is ridiculous it was better when tear gas was L1. And, for the last time no, no, no, no, volt countering two of his spells is not OP'd geez......The DM cannot kill the Assault that OP now? The Warrior cannot kill the Assaualt is that OP? Seriously man.

Yoshi: SpecOps L4 can win games by itself was never a crappy spell....

lol guys.. your english is driving me nuts...

Yoshi.. he said he agrees with the comments ON Pigy's comment being rude.. not agree with pigy's comment..
However, I was obviously just trying stuff, and I've never officially released that version.. it just got leaked....
There're 3 things I can do to make the spell less OP..... oh and it does 120 dmg (4 wraiths x 30 (+4) dmg)
1. Take out some or all wraiths..
2. make the Sensoring time longer (need 2 secs on top of enemy to activate instead of 1?)
3. Take out some or all of the stun time.. right now it is 2 seconds of stun
...
and a 4. switch tear gas and sensor grenade back to L1 and L2 respectively... altho i don't wish to do that...

and shredder... what does "nerfing" pigy mean?.... XD
and also, the Volt thing you've said can't be corrected for... The shockwave scourges junk yard dog ai is overwritten when an enemy unit that is attackable is closeby. it is the same with interceptors and etc.
Line effect spells.. I have considered that for ED's spells, but w/e.. it is great as it is...

Remove or lower scourge damage. I'm tired of volt one-hitting bombers, especially when i'm in them.

I think I hate Pigy and the stupid shit he talks more than anyone else, but he is definitely in the top 10 of temple siege players. I would never put it as bluntly as he did, but put yourself in his shoes: You are one of the best players at a very popular map, but when the creator goes and changes everything and releases/spreads it with shit tons of bugs. He's left with the dilemma of only 4 choices non of them being ideal 2)-
1) Play 1.5 with all its bugs and weird changes. Can't comment too much on this because I avoid it mostly.
2) Play MT with very few bugs, but +3 marine and +10 reavers, and almost too good assims
3) Play M3 without the worry of bugs and has great balance, but assims are worthless, so it's better to not cap bases, making summoner OP(I abuse this)(back to 1.2 style of playing LOL)
4) Play M4 with everything good about M3 plus better assim balance, but un-desired character changes.

most people pick option 2, all people really want is an M3 with assim fix, and un-invincible mines. Just remove cloak for the ghost to fix nuke imba.


I've always said you can actually gauge a player's skill by how much stuff they think is broken. When you come to the honest conclusion that none of the characters are truly broken with there being a counter for everything, and dramatic changes in the game are bad, you have reached Satori.

Clans....Pigy_G top 10? Please, this is the same guy who says he uses DM to counter Assault. This is the guy who I used L2 volt on against his mutant and never manualed ONCE. This is the same guy who died to Tod_the_Rods summoner with Lurk Bomber Mutant. This is the same guy who's mech died to Icemans bat. This guy is not top ten what so ever.

Though on topic....I do agree with Clans. What clans was touching upon was really well said. I really dont like 1.5, M4, MT. I play M3, and i wish they would release a perfect M3 version. Though I disagree with you Clans, yes M3 assims need balancing; assims in M3 are not good but they are not totally worthless, it just promotes total map control. 5 assims will give you a healthy upgrade lead. Good luck holding them against a skilled players though. Summoner is not broken in M3, just play smart and you win pretty easy (Heck 2v2 summoner isnt broken at all just play smart and you win ). Speaking of perfect M3 version, once again touching upon what clans said:

-Better Assim balance please.
-Warriors L3 Doesnt not kill enemy players spawn, it is a glitch.
-I think cloak should stay, but it is up to you.
-Dont make mines invinc just give them like 5-10 HP with same amount of armor.
-Fix invincible ghosts.
-Fix Marine Base Damage.
-Set Archon Base Damage to 30.
-Fix some of the terrain, I have some minor issues with some of the terrain ,but mainly, fix it so noobs cannot spawn block the northern and southern passages(i.e Dark orb, Probe,Ling,SCV e.t.c).
-I think this goes for most versions but in M3 fix the Middle "interrupt cap point" location its very broken very hard for top to interrupt left side mid.
-Also Clans brought up something intresting concerning the caps and assims. Lately when I play about 50% of the time i let the cap points go because like he said most of the time its not worth capping because of assiming balance issues.
-If you remove cloak for Nuclear Ghost, give him +2 or+3 per upgrade with maybe 300-500 HP.
P.S: Magicide about Bomber vs Volt, thats what Assault L2 is for so you dont have to get close.

These are just my suggestions. Thanks for listening.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Apr 5 2009, 8:20 pm by o0MaXX0o.

I agree with most of those changes to M3.

DM is, in my opinion, the best counter for Assault (Firebat). Dark Orb can play defense by himself. And the Marine's stun+wraith spell is ridiculous, I'll agree with that too.

Some of the changes that Unholy makes have potential, it's just that there's a lot of changes that make me question if he even understands competitive play on the map, and when there's enough of those stupid changes in the map, plus bugs, it completely turns me off from using his versions.

I think that in trying to fix some things that are definitely broken, such as Marine +3 and the Dropship+Nuke combo, Moose has created other problems. In the end though, it is progressing. The Firebat has been made useless and the Marine has been made overpowered in M4, I agree. Both have been compensated for in M5, and when that's released I hope that people will give it a fair shot.

Orright.. It's true that I make changes without really balancing or giving the thought of people who have gotten used to the old Temple siege...

To be fair, the change to Assault and Engineer, I felt, was a good move. It just feels more understandable to have Marine with all the grenades and tear gas spells... I remember that I made assault firebat precisely because tear gas would be rigged for marine.... I've always thought the assault being a firebat didn't match very well...
Plus, if we remember, Spec Ops with SCV for Spell 2 was worthless in competitive game.. I wanted that to change, so I had to make "drastic" changes and make SCV build stuff that are a lot better, thus changing the class...

I've always wanted the Marine to be the Assault... and that's going to stay <.<
and again, I've never really spreaded it.. I only played it with ][cy and blue and others.. because I needed to test stuff...
All of the old bugs have been fixed, and one new one sprung up (the new Lurker's L3)... For the record, 1 bug for this amount of changes for me is pretty good XD...

Aneeways, I obviously don't want to neglect you guys either... I understand that you may not like the big changes, but they all have their reason there... such as the new spawn system is to make Summoner not so OP and be actually part of Tournaments... and the new assault n engineer is what I've been working on since the beginning.. They're right now.. what I want them to be like...

I'll try to play more TS I guess, but it's really hard.. I have a lot of work to do and I've been neglecting TS for a while since i'm afraid people will bite me when I change anything .. So i'm spending more time at this forum and asking more questions... Also, when I play TS, it's a HUGE pressure, because I made the map, but many people are better than me XC... it SUCKS to lose at your own map okay????
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so anyway, to be on topic ... I'm going to increase the Sensor time to 2 seconds and make it spawn 3 wraiths rather than 4 (so it'd be (30+4)x3 dmg).. Increasing the Sensor time may not help very much ... but we'll c.

I have to agree that the terrain is not as balanced as it should be. It's no surprise that the majority of experienced players want to be on the south team. I checked the location for the middle and you're correct that it is much easier for the south team to capture block in the middle. Also, the south team can reach the bottom base much faster than the north team can.

I have something to say to all you who think assault is op... Seriously? I have played many times against the new assault, and he is way less op than the old one, who was the fb. Also, his stun lasts for a pretty short amount of time, and I dun think the wraiths do a lot for early game, personally. I also have to wonder about all the bad rep summoner gets, when to me, he is pretty easy to counter. Basically any stun spell stops any of his spells, lm owns him, and mutant's l3 owns him. Also line area effect spells could work for other units too, maybe.

Also, I like nerfing pigy LOL.

And about the new versions being worse, I disagree. To be honest, if there were 1000 classes it would be better, just because of the variety, and I like what you've done unholy. A lot of mapmakers suck at their own maps too dude, so don't worry.

And also, new maps are bound to have tons of glitches, especially when they're as trigger heavy as ts. That's why we're here to test it and it's also a beta version.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 6 2009, 1:39 am by ShredderIV.

Heros can counter summoner to win? ORLY? Summoner can win without player killing.

AND summoners lings (can) do more damage than any spell other than nuke.

Moose said something about terrain which reminds me. I'm assuming the terrainer purposely made it so that their would be a very narrow passage to top. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that top is the only base that doesn't have canons that can hit enemy units at the beacon. Point is south base has the narrow passage under cannons while north has it away from canons. See now when i run away from top lane and head back to base I always need to time it or else I will run into comp spawn and block my self and waste time so if i do get stuck from north I can get blocked but heros will not be deterred since the canons wont be protecting me. South has that advantage. It is an extremely unfair advantage for slow heros who cannot afford to take a an alternate route.

I need sum hot fix.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 6 2009, 1:46 am by MadZombie.

Umm assassins l3 and l4 beat summoner 1v1 dude. I've seen it happen. I also doubt your second statement. Lm's l2/4 does way more than any lings... He also counters summoner easy.

From player killing? Even then, don't you think its kinda lame that you'd have to be assassin to have a chance?

Maybe you misunderstood? I'm saying summoner can temple siege and EZPZ the match.

All this assuming all playing players (lul) are at the same level (pro).

Did you actually think I ment that summoners ling who has that stats of 10+2 be stronger than a reaver in ONE single hit? tbh i wasn't clear enough but i think you know what i mean now.

I'm pretty sure I do I think it's safe to assume that summoner is only op against ppl who don't KNOW how to counter him.

http://www.staredit.net/130527/
This post gives the major problems with the terrain, mostly that give advantage to South team. It would be hard to keep an unsymmetrical map balanced, but considering something as simple as the south team having a closer distance to the gates seem to be a problem especially when the Interference for capture is way off from where it should be for the North team.

Sorry I have to open my mouth again for the INANE comments I have been hearing.

Sin is not anti summoner in the sense that he counters him directly, Sin (with all points capped preferrable) is anti -summoner map control/training. Hes very good at that, as Sin is one of my mains. Though against good summoner the suprise Enemy Imitation/Decap will work only once against a good summoner.

A good Sin early and Mid game has nothing to fear from summoner, sometimes its the other way around.

Endgame however is a different story:

If its 2v1 or 3v1 then the sum usually has to leave the base to temp siege usually for the win (Swarm e.t.c). Even then he will do this at night (with no mutant around of course) then it becomes a guessing game for the sin to determine where the summoners location is if he is outeamed.

Endgame for the most part the sin will not be able to touch the summoner because he will be burrowed somewhere at night or he will be at the base where he is safe. Sin vs Summoner usually boils down to if the summoner makes a mistake, the sin will punish him good. Otherwise the summoner will leave the Sin alone and go about PK'ing others or sieging the Sins Main.

Also Endgame it becomes more difficult for Sin to cripple the lings without taking lethal damage. I can do this very well but even then I do have my limits, with 20+ ups on lings it becomes smarter to just Tele away then to take chances.

Though Sin is one of my favorites I have to say 1v1, endgame summoner wins he can just mass spawn the sin to death from his godly training from three lanes. If the summoner loses to sin 1v1 hes noob.

Umm assassins l3 and l4 beat summoner 1v1 dude. I've seen it happen. I also doubt your second statement. Lm's l2/4 does way more than any lings... He also counters summoner easy.
^I say this in the nicest way possible please stop playing against noobs. This will only work vs noobs, who will still leave the base knowing sim is roaming around with +200 mana with L3+L4 combo. In a 1v1 sitation the the summoner wins unless hes stupid enough to leave temple, I dont know who you have been playing but stop playing against sceubs.

Also as far as DM countering assault [Firebat] I just have one thing to say: Carpet Bomber = gg L2,L3,L4. Tear Gas = GG L4, and melee's from DM. Only thing that DM can really Gimp the firebat with is continous mael and L4 thats it, but even then Bat can L1 himself until mael wears off and scooped up to safety from L4.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Apr 6 2009, 2:52 am by o0MaXX0o.

Dude, the problem is, a good assassin with l4 can easily kill a summoner's base. Also, sins l2 completely rejects all attempts for sum to kill sin. I was just trying to say overall that sum is not op ok? And by l3 and l4, I really meant l2, l3 and l4, since l3 lets him waltz into sums base unapposed to l4 his base. Seen it done a lot.

**Sigh**. Ok, As a sin do you REALLY want to base race summoner who has 20+ up lings. Even with Maxed mana Decaping a base to death vs a summoner is a no go. Sin vs Summoner in a base race? GG sin you lose.

Bar none, the best Temple Raper in the game is summoner do not EVER try to base race him as SIN you will lose. Oh yea btw, if hes not noob he will plague you and rape you witht lings/ults chasing you away while your hes having your temple for a snack. If you cripple his lings/ults while L4ing his temple, well you just lost out on 50 mana to base race with him with and guess what, you lose even worse.

I'm going to sit my Dark Orb next to 4 cannons at my temple. If you're going to try to come carpet bomb it, good luck. When I hear "Nuclear Launch Detected," I walk around the back of my base and find your ghost. I maelstrom it, your nuke is useless. D-web has no effect, and I outrange you by far.

1v1 scenario who knows/cares who wins, but DM can effectively make the Firebat useless.

Summoner is not OP, but all of your examples where you think assasin can summoner.... are wrong:
- That Lv2 is an extremely small location
- Summoners max out their Mana before every other class, with LM being a distant second. You won't keep up with him sending waves.
- Ever since 'invincible@Temple' the summoner is much better off trading his weak hp regeneration for perma-invincibility; there will be no Lv4ing.