Many imbalanced maps make it to the top. >_>

But for the case of starcraft 2, I've never seen a map that had bad balance and was at the top when the original had better balance.

Wow... old thread... so this is where unholy calls me a bird? lol.

In short, to answer the OP and reiterate. Devlin and myself are correct. An open-source map doesn't teach you anything unless you already KNOW how the data editor works. It's like telling someone who wants to learn French to go read the Le Comte de Monte-Cristo by Alexandre Dumas in the original French. Without the basic understanding of how the data editor functions, you won't learn a thing. A bit like reading a book in a language you cannot understand, without even the faintest grasp of the linguistics and literary techniques.

So, in this sense open-source maps are bad. Because in my opinion, kids these days are always looking for instant gratification and if you want a cake, you buy one, you don't buy flour, milk, eggs etc. And it is in this sense that I know if I was a few years younger (the age I was when I first opened Staredit, for example) and I happened to open a Starcraft 2 map - I would be scared shitless, demotivated and hate Blizzard forever for making life so complicated. I definitely wouldn't have the perseverance to read through - quite frankly - dull tutorials.

But - open-source maps are good too. Provided you have read a few tutorials, know the basics, understand the modular and conceptual way in which the systems function and slot together - you will learn at least something from an open-source map. All I have learned about the Galaxy Editor to date has been from Tutorials - to confirm this learning and to learn better methodology and practice, I have opened a few maps, mostly from the campaign dependency. The thing is, the BEST open-source maps are already available to you, all of the data-editor objects which Blizzard have created are the ONLY examples you will ever need in learning how the Data Editor works. Then once you know not only know how it works, but you understand it 110% - you can begin thinking outside-the-box and imaginatively and applying your knowledge to create NEW (custom) things. The true art of good map-making comes in the perserverance you apply into learning and testing your creations... Why did this beam weapon not work? Why does it not link to air units? Why does the actor not scale the missile/beam effect? Why is the launch location wrong but the impact location correct? Why does my mover not work properly? Why is there no sound playing for the attack action? These are questions you have to ask yourself and learn for yourself. And the next paragraph will illustrate why the Galaxy Editor is such a bitch.

The galaxy editor is a very professional tool. And if you are familiar with any other professional/high-end software (3D Studio Max, Maya, Unreal Development Kit and even Adobe packages to a certain extent) you will know that as the level of professionalism and the power to 'create' increases, so does the learning curve - exponentially. So, not only do you have to invest more time learning how to use the software, you end up spending more time developing your map (or mod) with the software.

So, on that bombshell. Keep your map protected, locked down, put it in stasis and once you've done all this whack it in a carbonite bath and launch it into space. Because there will always be lazy, ungrateful sons of bitches who will see your hardwork and think 'fuck this guy, I'm putting my name all over it'. The map publishing system offers you some protection to this. But, if you're putting hours of your days and weeks into a map - and you think you're being noble by leaving it open-source for people to 'learn from' - then you are wrong. You would be much better developing a shit-awesome map, locking it, publishing it and then gaining 'popularity' - and THEN writing tutorials and wiki articles about HOW you created the things in your map.

I know my posts seem argumentative and harsh - but they are directed at no-one in particular. Except maybe at the idea of the OP and my language usually conveys this argumentative stance because I feel strongly about what I am arguing.

For no reason I feel like contributing to this thread.

I have a reason why I put my maps on Locked. His name is Dark_lunatic_K

Inb4nostalgia

meh u know wat?

For SC2... i find it hard to believe anyone can really do a good job with an open source map...
1) Data editor's completely different from SC1's triggering system.. It's not learning about the ways to work around certain things, it's like learning a completely new language.
Still, open source has its pros.. but in the current situation, it is probably ezier to just ask the creator or forums.

2) Any good or bad balances of a map won't make it to see the light of day due to the crappy custom map popularity system. So it really doesn't matter anymore...

In short, in SC1, I'd say definately keep ur map open source
in SC2.. don't care anymore.

Special Forces Inferno
Elite Equality 2
Special Forces Sparta
Special Forces Nano
etc...

These are all iterations where people who were probably not as versed in the editor went out, explored, made some additions, and people liked it. Some ideas worked, some ideas didn't.

The talent in the mapping community is still growing, and people are learning. This happens with all blizzard games, the editors aren't documented and well-learned until a bit of time into the map editors lifetime.

How did you not see this coming? Warcraft 3's editor was more complex over the Starcraft 1 editor, of course the Starcraft 2 editor is going to be that much more complex.

It's not flawless, but that's not a reason to avoid the SC2 editor. If you're lazy you should just say so.

Eventually blizzard will fix the popularity system.

Then I'm not even sure why you're here arguing on the SC2 forum about open maps when you have no stake in the affair.

Really dude, I remember a time where you and other people here would actually try your best to solve problems and make some fun game-types instead of throwing excuses around of why you don't want to make maps.

Incorrect. If you don't know a lot about the editor, you can learn by modifying the map and seeing what you can change. Making a gametype from scratch is impossibly hard just diving into the editor, adding a hero marine to "left 2 die" for example is easier. Despite not knowing much you'll start with the intention of making a hero marine, make some mistakes and figure out how the data editor works, other cool things you can do, and also see how the original mapper did things. When it's closed, you can't mess around with it or see how it works.

I learn new things this way all the time. So for you to tell me that it's impossible for anyone to learn this way is borderline insulting. It may not be your style but that doesn't apply for everyone else.

This isn't some kind of system where I'm making a birdhouse for someone and they paint it a different color and go LOL ITS MINE. It's more like the cake batter is already done, if you want it to be banana flavored do you remake the cake or does slipping some bananas in and saving time mean you're a jerk looking for "instant gratification"? It's a combination of "why re-invent the wheel" as you're wasting a bunch of time remaking a gametype if the resources already exist. Do you consider tutorials, wikis, borrowing triggers, borrowing ideas, etc as a part of this "instant gratification" definition of yours? Where do you arbitrarily draw the line?

So basically you're saying you consider yourself a father figure and all the people who don't understand the editor as well as children? Because this whole "figure it out yourself and it builds character" sure seems like it.

I don't even have to debate this, as there's plenty of edits of my own map of creative and NEW things as you put it that people have added which are pretty neat. But I guess ignorance is bliss.

Which makes it ever so more important to not require everyone to start from scratch.

Like I said earlier - epeen and irrational fear.

So lets banish Copyright laws too.

Maps are still the rightful (Not lawful) property of whoever created them. If they dont want people to touch them in inappropriate ways, then thats included in the editor. Locking your map is like locking your house at night. If you want people to come inside and rape you in the night well go right ahead and leave it open (Unless you live in some quiet area, but lets just say for the sake of this argument you live in a downtown setting where crime rates are pretty high), or if you prefer that the bad stays out and the good stays in, you lock em.

I really try to give SEN a chance, but when when you actually think "locking your map is like locking your house at night", it's hard to take anybody seriously.

Just like it is to take you seriously when you had your map stolen and you give zero care about it.

I mean you pretty much are just donating a map to someone who is willing to lock it for you when you dont lock it, so why take the chance.

But I don't care.

There's already a ton of Special Forces Elite iterations on battle.net. I actually had to ask them to remove my name in a lot of cases and just specify "originally created by" somewhere in the help menu or something since I was getting a lot of emails of people suggesting improvements thinking I control the edited version of the map. There's been one or two iterations where the guy who edited it stuck his name in a lot of places but not mine beside his, but I don't care because I didn't ask him of that, and usually they forget to remove my name from everywhere anyways so you can still see it somewhere.

My map has been on the number 1 page for a good while in the fall, and the edits have slowly popped up and sometimes are there as well. At any given moment, there is at least one or two edited versions of my map on any given realm on the first two pages. I consider it a success, one which wouldn't of been possible had I locked the map. I've had exactly zero blatantly obvious attempts to "credit steal" on my map. There's been one or two cases of people locking a map the map I put up as open, and my only reaction was confusion more than anything, because the original is still available on battle.net and sc2mapster.

You're preaching to me as if I don't know any better, but I'm a living success story as I took the risk and all that happened was both me and the starcraft 2 community benefited greatly by it.

I cant say greatly benefited. Its not like the old days where people would regard you a 'legendary map maker' or some shit like that, or mention you when comparing maps to others, and suggesting features from other maps that are proven to be useful and that work. People are just a name on SC2, and giving people the opportunity to make that even less for you isnt my idea of a good day.

But dont get me wrong, Im not telling you what to do, by all means do as you please. But I would much prefer handing over a version that wouldnt be compatible with bnet, or is missing a good chunk of stuff that would make the game unplayable if the user chose to do something with the map, then opening the map to prying eyes that are up to no good.

Anddddd the truth finally comes out as epeen and irrational fear. You like to pretend those aren't the real reasons but once you get put on the spot the truth comes out.

Now youre just arguing to make yourself sound right.

Why not? I don't need to be a celebrity on a virtual gaming network. Actually I pity anyone who just maps for fame.
Also I'm proud about Desert Strike being one of the most popular sc1 maps nowadays, even though none of my versions are given much attention. But I know it was my map where it all began, and that realization is enough "to make my day". I don't need others to tell me (or think) how awesome I are.

Anyways, my main goal on bnet is to have fun playing maps. Often good maps could be even better so I edited them and then had even more fun with my version. Desert Strike was similar, although I felt I needed to edit too much and decided to remake it entirely. (The "original" is CASTLE FIGHT from theleo_ua)
DS has become a great success, that's cool. but I'd still have fun playing it with my friends if it wasn't.

Oh... so mikelats the guy responsible for the billion and one clones of the same map? I see now.

I think the idea there is that people could put a lot of effort and time into a map, release it with their name on it (just as anyone who creates something they are proud of would want their name associated with it), and then have some random guy change a few things and replace their name with his. The original creator can then be proud that their creation has evolved, sure, but then I wonder what happens when they want to add to their original map. For example, both Mini Moose and CAFG had versions of Temple Siege released that surpassed UU's version, and after a while it seemed as if they became more important for the development than he did. Had he tried to release a new version of it, people would still stick with the CAFG and MM versions, and despite being the original creator, he was left behind. Granted with this example there are other factors (like the amount of bugs that weren't being addressed, and UU's lack of updates), but the concept is still the same.


Hell, Ahli is putting a lot of work into his Diablo 1 map, and if it was open, someone could take that map, change a few values, call it "Diablo 1 v. AWESOME" and replace his name with the modifier's name. That would suck, a lot.

I said it earlier, and I stand by it: If you don't want you map open, then people should respect that. When I eventually finish Invasion, I wont want people modifying it, I'd prefer it if they gave me feedback so I can modify it myself and release newer versions. That may be selfish, but it takes me forever to finish maps and this is one I will be proud of and don't want people messing with.

This is pretty much what happened with DS. You wouldn't believe what shit people give me when I host my ver. I'm called a cheater, an imposter, a map stealer, that my playstyle is not intended on DS, you name it, because they don't even know I created the map originally. I estimate that's a bit less than 50% of the people.
Of course it annoys me at that moment, but then again I don't have to play with them and so I don't really care.
Sure I could've protected my map and have everyone wait until I find the motivation to map another bugfix / balancing release. That way there would only be the versions out there I like and thus nobody would give me bs. But that would've simply been selfish and ultimately epeen.

I guess not everyone can understand that sentiment in today's society where it's all about money and everywhere you hear about pirated music, trademarks, copy rights and plagiarism and only few people actually know what public domain is. That's why Yoshi and I are preaching against a wall here.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 24 2011, 1:16 am by NudeRaider.

I think we all know what public domain is, but we choose not to release our work as public domain. Unfortunately that's how the world works, not everything is free and open. I totally get why the open source map-making movement occurred, and I understand why both sides were so radical about fighting for their cause, but I've generally been the type who just says people should do what they want as long as they aren't outright "stealing" something. If I wanted to edit a locked map, I'd ask the creator for permission to make the changes. If they agree, then I'd make my changes, and if they disagree then I'd strongly suggest that they add those changes for the betterment of the map.

Maybe I'm in too much of a "can't we all get along" mood right now. I'm tired. I need to sleep.

TL;DR but still not really short version of everything I've said is: I'm all for letting people lock maps if they want to lock them, and letting people keep maps open if they want to open them. I don't think that in SC2 unlocking a map to see how it is made will teach you any more than reading a tutorial, based on the complexity of the editor.

As with every debate here, ultimately no one will change any minds. Can't we all get along?

I feel the same way.
people saying that I'm not competitive in my map, or that I don't know how to play it... Or people who yell at me, saying that I've left them behind or haven't contributed enough to the competitive play.
Sure I could've protected my map as well and have everyone wait. But I knew that, at least in SC1, that would be stupid because everyone has their ideas, and it increase the popularity of my map if people get to change it around and implement their own things.
Of course, I totally respect and appreciate the time and effort put into my map. But hey, remember, it was my initial ideas, my passion, that created the map. No one can take that from me, so I knew it was okay to keep my map open source.
Just don't take it against me when I don't have time or have the motivation to serve your needs.

I have every stake in the affair as it is my Opinion, and my opinion, as well as everyone else's, is valuable. You, of all people, should know this.

Oh I don't know.. Maybe the only custom game ever played in WC3 is DOTA isn't a big enough hint to make the editor more user-friendly so more varieties of maps can be made? Just saying.

Maybe you took it the wrong way when I said "Don't care anymore". Because I'm not saying that I don't give a shit about SC2's custom mapping as a whole, I'm saying I wouldn't care if it is generally accepted to have maps being closed source.
Let me delve deeper into this.
Because of the terribad interface of the SC2 Editor, and the EXTREMELY terribad interface of B.net 2, almost all mappers resort to online resources such as sc2mapster n teamliquid or w/e. Also, the ONLY way to get ANY attention on your map is to either have a shit ton of luck, or advertise your map on the above sites.
Because of this, almost all resoures have been allotted online, and most people will think of looking at map examples and getting help NOT thru battle.net 2, but on forums. And since forums will be a much bigger help, they will rely on those rather than looking into maps.
Also, because everything is allotted onto forums, the creators themselves become well known to the community, and can be easily contacted and asked for help.
Overall, this effectively makes Open-Sourced maps useless.

Still, there are situations that make Open-sourced maps a good thing for the community, such as Spec Forces, for example... But that's really the only case that I've seen so far.

If the evidence wasn't stacked so high against the only reason to keep maps open-sourced, I would've voted for open-sourced as well, as I've stated in my first post of this thread.